Our Caring for Caregivers series is supported by the Van Leer Foundation, an independent Dutch organization working globally to foster inclusive societies where all children and communities can flourish.
Scroll down for a transcription of this episode.
On Christmas morning, Noam Osband and Devora Keller gathered their family in the kitchen to take a breath and find a moment of calm. Breathing exercises, typically an afterthought in the chaos of breakfast, set the tone for what was about to unfold.
The centerpiece of this gathering wasn’t a holiday tradition or a family debate, but rather a song Osband had heard on his drive to Christmas Eve mass the night before. Partita for 8 Voices by Caroline Shaw, a Pulitzer-winning composition for the vocal group called Roomful of Teeth.
As the music began, their three-year-old daughter Daliah leaned forward and smiled, clearly enjoying the music.
Their four-year-old son Zeb whispered, “Is this going to make me cry?”
It wasn’t just music—it was a shared moment of awe, where the family was moved deeply by something vast and greater than themselves. Moments like these, where awe and connection intermingle, remind us of the transformative power of awe, even in a kitchen early in the morning.
What is Awe and Why Does it Matter for Caregivers?
Awe is one of the most transformative emotions we can experience. It can shift our perspective, reduce self-focus, and deepen our connection to others and the world. From views of the Grand Canyon to simple acts like noticing a hummingbird zoom past your window, awe can help us experience the extraordinary within the ordinary.
In these moments, you might feel a sense of wonder so profound that your usual concerns seem to melt away.
What is going on inside our brains during these awe-inspiring experiences? What thread do they have in common?
Dacher Keltner, a psychologist at UC Berkeley, a leading expert on awe, and host of The Science of Happiness podcast at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center, has spent the past two decades researching awe and the science of emotions.
Growing up, Keltner’s parents immersed him in awe-inducing experiences. From wild camping trips, to serene museum visits, and sharing the music of Bob Dylan with him. The musical moments were more than entertainment; they offered a connection to something vast and meaningful.
His research into awe reveals why things like music, art, and nature are so powerful. Certain melodies can slow the heart rate and activate the vagus nerve which gives you a sense of warmth in the chest and a feeling of flushness. Similarly, when people report tearing up during moments of awe, this is a parasympathetic autonomic response that is part of calming.
“Awe, even when felt alone, connects us to things that are larger than ourselves,” Keltner says. “People feel inspired, empowered, they imagine, you know, what they want to be part of in life. They feel purposeful.”
For caretakers navigating the demands of daily life, awe offers a much-needed pause, allowing us to step back and see the bigger picture. It helps us find meaning, fosters humility and deepens our connection to the shared human experience— all of which can make the caregiving journey feel richer and more fulfilling, and in turn, benefit those we care for.
“What I love about awe in caregiving is the power of how it changes our mind,” Keltner says. “It can give you a sense of the bigger things that your family is part of.”
Research shows that across cultures, awe is a universal human experience. From the wide-eyed expressions of astonishment to the shared vocalizations of “wow” and “whoa,” awe connects us all.
Emotion scientist Alan Cowen analyzed facial expressions in 1.5 million videos across 144 cultures and found a 75% link between awe expressions—raised eyebrows, widened eyes, dropped jaw, or vocalizations—and moments of awe.
For caregivers, recognizing these moments in themselves and their loved ones can deepen relationships.
Psychologist Virginia Sturm studies the impact of awe on loneliness and our relationships. She found a simple Awe Walk can make people feel more connected to others.
“People who took awe walks [also] showed increasing levels like compassion, admiration, gratitude,” says Sturm.
For caretakers, moments of awe can help shift focus away from daily stresses and encourage a deeper appreciation for children's growth and development.
Keltner recalls experiencing profound awe when his daughter Natalie took her first steps in Northern California’s Muir Woods, and that awe continued while hearing the sound of his daughter Serafina’s laughter while playing games at the dinner table. These became defining experiences that bridged the ordinary with the extraordinary.
Fostering Awe in Children
Adults can cultivate a sense of awe in children by providing opportunities for them to experience it. Simple, intentional practices like bringing nature indoors with flowers or plants, taking walks to notice small details in the environment, or sharing awe-inspiring music and watching nature documentaries together, as Noam Osband and Devora Keller did with their children.
“What are the big things you're part of?” Keltner says. “Find them, cultivate them, let them speak to you, pass them on to your children.”
Awe can have a positive impact on kids and teens, helping them feel less anxious and depressed and boosting their overall mental well-being.
Beyond the emotional benefits of awe, studies have shown that it may motivate children to think like scientists as they try to make sense of the physical world.
Awe is a valuable social emotional tool to help children become kinder, more compassionate, socially aware people, and it has the ability to transform how we see ourselves, connect with others and experience the world.
Sharing awe with children enhances their experience, as they often mirror caregivers’ emotions—a process called social referencing. For example, infants hesitate to cross a “visual cliff” when mothers show fear but move forward when they smile. This influence continues into adulthood, shaping how children respond to awe-inspiring moments.
Osband and Keller have been working on incorporating awe into their lives and their children’s lives. Whether it’s watching bird migration videos, embracing the stillness of nature, or simply being intentional about seeking wonder, they realize that these moments of awe have the power to ground them, connect them and experience joy together as a family.
“Taking in beautiful views or smelling eucalyptus, it allows me to be a better parent,” Keller says.
How To Incorporate Awe Into Your Everyday Life
Here are a few tips on how to incorporate awe into day-to-day activities.
- Take An Awe Outing: Take short walks and focus on the beauty around you—watch birds, notice clouds, or pick up a fallen leaf.
- Write An Awe Narrative: Think of your most recent experience of awe and describe it in vivid detail.
- Watch Awe-Inspiring Videos: Watch a short video that inspires awe, then reflect on how it makes you feel and the thoughts it evokes.
- Bring Nature Indoors: Fresh flowers, a houseplant, or even a bowl of colorful fruit can bring wonder into your home.
- Experience Awe Music and Art: Play songs that inspire awe or explore art that leaves you breathless.
- Share Your Awe Experiences: Talk about what moves you with your children. Research shows kids learn how to feel awe by observing their caregivers’ emotional expressions.
- Nurture Kindness in Kids with Awe-Inspiring Movies: Foster generosity in kids with films that elicit awe.
The power of awe is within your reach, so step outside, look up, and let it transform you.
ARTICLE BY EMILY BROWER
Our Caring for Caregivers series is supported by the Van Leer Foundation, an independent Dutch organization working globally to foster inclusive societies where all children and communities can flourish.
To discover more insights from Van Leer Foundation and others on this topic, visit Early Childhood Matters, the leading platform for advancing topics on early childhood development and connecting diverse voices and ideas across disciplines that support the wellbeing of babies, toddlers and caregivers around the globe.
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Episode Show Notes:
This week on The Science of Happiness, we explore how moments of awe can transform caregiving. By incorporating awe through music, nature, and shared experiences, Noam Osband and Devora Keller found ways to refresh themselves and foster connection within their two young children. Their stories illuminate the impact of awe on parenting and caretaking, and the importance of intentionally cultivating wonder to enhance caregiving and strengthen bonds.
Today’s Guests:
NOAM OSBAND is a radio producer and anthropologist whose work explores themes of culture, identity, and human connection.
DEVORA KELLER is a physician with a decade of experience building and leading transitional care programs in the safety net. She is board certified in internal medicine and addiction medicine.
Related The Science of Happiness episodes:
The Science of Awe: https://tinyurl.com/3jz8rnev
Are You Following Your Inner Compass: https://tinyurl.com/y2bh8vvj
The Healing Effects of Experiencing Wildlife: https://tinyurl.com/bde5av4z
The Value of Variety and Novelty: https://tinyurl.com/3rm58m3e
Related Happiness Breaks:
A Walking Meditation: https://tinyurl.com/mwbsen7a
A Meditation on Becoming a Gift to Life: https://tinyurl.com/3et7rz4p
Tell us about your experiences and struggles with compassionate listening. Email us at happinesspod@berkeley.edu or follow on Instagram @ScienceOfHappinessPod.
Help us share The Science of Happiness! Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts and share this link with someone who might like the show: https://tinyurl.com/2p9h5aap
Transcription:
SHUKA KALANTARI: This episode is supported by the van leer Foundation, a global organization committed to supporting young children in communities to flourish.
NOAM OSBAND: My son has been interested in birds lately, and he was asking me about like which direction South is because he wanted to know which way the birds might be moving. So we did two nights of movie watching with the kids. One night, we watched the movie Winged Migration, which is a 20 year old documentary about birds migrating. And then the next day, we watched movies about volcanoes, which he also has been really interested in.
And both nights, there were moments where I heard each child sort of under their breath saying things like, “Wow,” or, “Amazing.”
DEVORA KELLER: What was striking to me was in watching these videos, it was the first time that I could think of that we were all watching something together, and all really in it together.
DACHER KELTNER: Welcome to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Awe is one of the most fundamental human emotions. It's something we experience when we're around vast things that we may not immediately understand, for example, through music, nature or the cycle of birth and death. And my research over the past 20 years shows there are so many benefits to feeling moments of awe, from activating the vagus nerve, which helps us relax and feel at ease, to inducing wonder and curiosity and joy by shifting our focus outward. Today, we're focusing on how awe can uplift caregivers. Our guests are Noah Osband and Devora Keller, a couple who live in Philadelphia with their two young children. We asked them to try some lab tested practices to help them intentionally experience awe in a variety of forms, and also to share those experiences with their kids. We'll hear how they incorporated awe into their lives as parents, and later in the show, we'll dive more into the details about the science of awe and why it can support caregivers
More after this break.
Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. This week, we're exploring how caregivers can experience moments of awe to the benefit of the people they care for. Our guests today are a married couple with two young kids in Philadelphia. Devora Keller is a physician who focuses on something really hard, the medicine for the unhoused. Noam Osband is a radio producer. In fact, he produced a couple of great shows for us here on the science of happiness. So thank you, Noam. They tried practices that we've studied in my lab at UC Berkeley, designed to spark awe, hoping to refresh themselves as tired parents and inspire awe and connection in their kids. Devorah and Noam, thanks for joining us on The Science of Happiness.
NOAM OSBAND: Happy to be here.
DEVORA KELLER: Delighted to be here.
DACHER KELTNER: You know, it's been a while. How old are your kids?
NOAM OSBAND: Four and just turned three. They're 18 months apart to the day.
DACHER KELTNER: And what are their names?
NOAM OSBAND: Zeb. Zebulon, but we just call him Zeb. And our daughter is Dahlia, but we just call her Dolly.
DACHER KELTNER: Oh, wonderful. You guys are right in the thick of it. I remember, you know, when I was at your stage, 23 years ago, how exhausting it is at your stage, and also how you have these really powerful moments of awe when you're parenting young children. How's it been in your adjustment to being parents of young children?
DEVORA KELLER: People always say how all encompassing it is, and it's just humbling to live it and to experience how really you are a big part of everything for these tiny people, and their need for your presence is never ending, and the desire for engagement has been both exceptionally fun, but also really exhausting.
DACHER KELTNER: It's incredible. That's exactly how I felt about it, Devora. There was just like the sense of time, like there's never a free second. You know, it feels like sometimes. You know, with a three and a four year old, what drew you to awe? Like, why awe as something to build into your parenting?
DEVORA KELLER: We made a really huge transition about 15 months ago when we relocated from the Bay Area to Philadelphia, but I was living in the Bay Area for over a decade beforehand, and really felt the power of nature to ground me in the work that I was doing in early parenthood, like I felt like my daily commute or our weekend activities were infused with this sense of natural wonder that I felt really grounded me, and then having decided to leave that I knew that was going to impact me, and I've been struggling, at least personally and as a family, to reproduce that.
DACHER KELTNER: I hear you. I hear you. How about you Noam, what drew you to awe?
NOAM OSBAND: You know, I had a father who I was really close to, who passed when I was relatively young. I was 20, and he was a very good parent at introducing us to awe. So like I have a very dear memory is him driving me to school one day, and we were listening to Stravinsky's The Firebird. At one point it goes to 11 eight time, which is an odd time signature, and him, like clapping it out with his hands, and it was wonderful. And like joking up a little bit. I love the guy, and I find it very meaningful being able to do those things with kids.
I'm a musician, and music is a big part of my life. I really enjoy introducing them to music. And a couple times we've been in the car and songs have come on, such as Stairway to Heaven or Terrapin station by The Dead. And I've been like, all right, Zeb, we're gonna stay in the car and we're gonna listen to the rest of this. So we've sort of done music as an intentional thing, even before we, you know, signed up to do this as a practice. But then the piece I chose to introduce them to, because I thought it would be interesting for them, is this piece of music, Partita in 8 voices by Caroline Shaw from this choral group Room Full of Teeth. So we gathered in the kitchen. You hear Zeb saying, like, is this gonna make me cry? What do you say? You might have tears. That's right, that's what happens sometimes with music. And it's this really sort of swirling, amazing choral piece.
And Dolly, our daughter, I mean, she was just like smiling and very clearly enjoying, like, hearing that piece, and sometimes it just hits you in the gut, and it was cool to see that reflected on Dolly's face.
DACHER KELTNER: You know Michael Tomasello, this developmental psychologist writes about shared experience just being fundamental to human consciousness. It's one of the great achievements, and awe is so powerful in that regard. One of the things that's happened in our culture is we just share fewer experiences. We don't go to the picnics like we used to, or temple or church or synagogue. We don't share meals as much as we used to. And what a wonderful observation, just to have that grounded in this experience.
NOAM OSBAND: You had talked about awe being a shared experience. And one of the best moments that we had, and this was actually sort of unplanned, was we went back to the Bay for Thanksgiving, and we went on a walk in a redwood forest near Santa Cruz, where we were staying. And then my son came up to me, and he did to me what I've done with him other times, you know, he just, like, ran up to me. He's like, let's close our eyes and listen to the birds. And it was the first time he's ever done that to me, which, as a parent, was really rewarding. Because how often do you try to instill some values or some messaging? And you just think, like, I hope this is working through an osmosis. And for him to come back to me, was really wonderful, both to see that he's picking up on that. But like, as a shared experience, it was really fun to be able to share that with him, you know, and really, as a caretaker, immensely, immensely fulfilling.
DEVORA KELLER: And he wanted to share that with you too, which is, like, the nice part is, like it he didn't want to just do it alone. He wanted to do that, and then he wanted to do it with you. So that's pretty cool.
DACHER KELTNER: Tell me what it was like for your little family of four to walk through those redwoods.
NOAM OSBAND: Oh, I mean, that was wonderful. We spent so much time outside in the Bay, and we did a bunch of things that were outdoors. So we took them to the beach. We also went back to Glen Canyon, the park in San Francisco that we spent a lot of time with when we were living there. As a caretaker, those are spaces which are both really nice but also really easy to like, be with your kids. It's like, that's not to be underrated as like you know, what can you do with your kids on the weekend, that is easy to go to a redwood park and walk around and know that your kids are gonna find it interesting, and I don't need to be as active.
DEVORA KELLER: For me, I feel like spending time with the family outside and sort of, forest bathing or like taking in beautiful views, or smelling eucalyptus, like it allows me to be a better parent. Those sorts of things make me grounded in a way that I definitely, in a very tangible way feel like translate into being more patient, being more connected, and being less frustrated.
DACHER KELTNER: And it's fitting with the science. I mean, just little moments of awe. You share more, you cooperate more, you listen better. And I think your examples really tell us it's powerful. So you guys watch some nature videos, which is great, and I'd love to hear how that went. You know, studies show just a it's pretty striking. You know, a little bit of nature videos, like Planet Earth, makes you feel less stressed about daily hassles, activates reward circuitry in the brain. You know, it gives you a sense of humility and the like. Tell us about watching nature videos with your kids.
NOAM OSBAND: We did two nights of movie watching with the kids. One night, we watched the movie Winged Migration, which is a 20 year old documentary about birds migrating. And then the next day, we watched movies about volcanoes. And both nights, there were moments where I heard each child sort of under their breath saying things like “wow” or “amazing.”
DEVORA KELLER: Like it really felt like we were all watching it and participating, and, like, seeing the same things, maybe in slightly different ways. And that was really, really meaningful and meant a lot to me. And like, this was something that was, I was struck by how it was accessible to all of us.
DACHER KELTNER: What did you notice in yourself and in your children, as they had these awe experiences, what did you see in their bodies? And then what do you feel in your bodies?
NOAM OSBAND: With the nature videos, definitely like a calmness, especially at night time. We jokingly, but kind of not jokingly, refer to it as sundowning, where, like, they just get dysregulated. And that is not an easy hour. But everybody, when we're watching these nature movies, is calm. They're not hitting each other. They're like, everybody was really able to be in this very calm, physical place that is not usually what the vibe is. At 7:30 at night.
DEVORA KELLER: I mean, more than that, I felt like there was, like some deep snuggles we were watching. And like, it was, like a deep, snuggle, like people, almost as if you could imagine, you know, like kinetic sand or something, where, like, things start to, like, meld into each other. I felt like, as we were watching, especially like the bird migration one, it felt like people were like melding into, like one blob together on the couch, which was cool, and really, like gratifying. And so, yeah, that was something very, I think, also physical and tangible about I felt like specifically the bird videos.
DACHER KELTNER: I think what you're really teaching us, and thank you, is seeking out these moments of awe and videos and museums and nature and conversations that arise, and where the children take it is just so foundational to parenting. And I'm curious, you know, you've engaged in this experiment. How has it illuminated things about your parenting and caregiving? How has it changed your approach to caregiving?
DEVORA KELLER: One of the things that's been hard to get my head around with parenting is, like, how you need to be or you can be intentional about the connection you want to create. Like, I think I approach it as feeling more artificial, but like that shouldn't necessarily be the case. So I think this has been a good example, like seeing how these activities were powerful and they were like, you know, designed to be such, or like, maybe there's something to that.
DACHER KELTNER: Well, Devora and Noam, thanks for being part of this show.
NOAM OSBAND: Happy to be here.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Hi there. Are you a parent, teacher, nurse or caregiver of any kind? If so, sign up for our caring for caregivers newsletter at tinyurl.com/GGSCCaring. Over the next few months, you'll receive four science fact guides with simple uplifting practices like dancing, music and connecting with nature, all to help you recharge, find joy and deepen your relationship with The people you support. Sign up at tinyurl.com/GGSCCaring, that's tinyurl.com/GGSCCaring.
Up next we talk about what we've learned about awe on The Science of Happiness over the years, and what Dacher’s own research shows about why it's so powerful for caregivers. Stay tuned.
DACHER KELTNER: I'm Dacher Keltner, welcome back to The Science of Happiness. For our long time, listeners, you'll know we've explored the science of awe before on our show. We looked at how it impacts the default mode network of the brain with neuroScientist Michael Van Elk.
MICHAEL VAN ELK: If you daydream, if you start worrying about work related things, whenever we find ourselves in this self reflective thought, the default mode network is active.
DACHER KELTNER: We know that over activity in the brain's default mode network, being in your head too much, is tied to depression, rumination and constant worry about the future.
MICHAEL VAN ELK: When people are having this emotion, they're literally less focused on the self.
DACHER KELTNER: We talked to psychologist Virginia Sturm about the impact of awe on loneliness in our relationships.
VIRGINIA STURM: People who took awe walks reported greater feelings of things, like feeling the presence of vast things, feeling more connected to others.
DACHER KELTNER: And we've also learned about how awe is experienced differently by people from different cultures, with psychologist Yang Bai.
YANG BAI: The culture in the United States emphasizing on independence, emphasizing on loose social connections. East Asian culture like China, those cultures emphasize on interdependence. So for those participants, when feeling awe, it provides them the opportunity to see themselves even more closely connecting with others.
DACHER KELTNER: Now we're switching things up. Instead of me interviewing another expert on awe, I'll be in the hot seat sharing my research on how awe can support caregivers. From parents like Noam and Devora to those caring for elderly parents, which is something emerging in my life. Guiding the conversation is our podcast Executive Producer Shuka Kalantari, here's part of our conversation.
SHUKA KALANTARI: You have spent decades of your life studying the feeling of awe and its impact on people, on societies, and of all the different things you could have honed in on why awe.
DACHER KELTNER: You know, I was lucky as a kid to be raised by parents who prioritized awe, and we just did wild camping trips and museums and listened to music together, you know, Bob Dylan and the like. And then I remember distinctly, you know, when Natalie was born, my first daughter, 27 years ago. And it just was full awe, you know, it just like, ripped me open. All of life was different. And I just was like, you know, whatever that is, that feeling that I had early as a child that brought such humanity to my life and to other people's lives. I got to study it, you know. So we dove into it. We started to do a little bit of research with children. I kept going back to what was great about raising children, which was many things, but at the top of the list was It is awesome to watch children develop. I still remember, you know, early games with Serafina and just my younger daughter laughing at the dinner table and just her capacity for humor and play, or Natalie's first steps in Muir Woods, some of her first steps. And I think we need to remind parents and caregivers like life has a lot of awe in it.
SHUKA KALANTARI: You and Noam and Devora spoke about the sense of expansiveness and, you know, weird, some small thing in a big, larger system, one would maybe think that could lead to a sense of alienation from others, right? But as you well know, the research shows quite the opposite. How does that lead to more of a sense of connection, as opposed to alienation, from that sense of vastness.
DACHER KELTNER: Awe, even when felt alone, connects us to things that are larger than ourselves. And about three quarters of the time, people feel inspired, empowered. They imagine, you know, what they want to be part of in life. They feel purposeful. Quarter the time you feel fearful, threatened, a little bit alienated, right? So we have to always remember that. And I think one of the real challenges of parenting and caregiving these days, given that we don't do it in the United States in an intergenerational context for the most part, we move around a lot, so we're not in the same community that our parents were in, and that we don't have the narratives of our culture that we used to have of like we're all Americans, we're all go to church. We've lost a lot of the sense of being placed or situated in larger systems than ourselves. And that's what I love about awe in caregiving, the power of how it changes our mind and with a little self awareness that you heard in Noam and Devora, it can give you a sense of the bigger things that your family is part of, and that's what music does, right? And you know, when families share music, they start to feel like, yeah, I loved this as a kid. Now, my child loves it. I got it from my parents. There's some identity there that transcends individual self, a shared identity.
SHUKA KALANTARI: We talked about awe the parents' experience, and how that can kind of trickle over into the family, but then there's a deliberate experience of like our classrooms, what aspects of awe make it really useful for teachers.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah, this one really mattered to me, as I was doing 20 years of research on awe and then writing this book, and we had done some preliminary work, Dante Dixon and others, showing man, if you have a little bit of awe in a very under resourced school, kids are more curious in their homework and what we know scientifically and why teachers should be promoting awe is awe makes us more creative. It makes us more rigorous in analyzing evidence. It makes us do better on hard science tests. You know, it makes us more likely to share with kids around us and collaborate, which we know is fundamental to education. It gives you some techniques that really came out of teachers' wisdom that you can apply as a parent too, which is like, ask children, why this tide pool? How do you make sense of it? Why the sky? Why the colors? That gets you to awe so there are a lot of things that we can do to access this fundamental emotion in the classroom, but then also out as parents and caregivers.
SHUKA KALANTARI: And it sort of has a ping pong effect, right? I'm thinking the educators themselves are absorbing that experience also.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah, you know, we're starting to do research on this fascinating phenomenon that we are very inspired in telling stories of awe, and when they really speak to us, right? We feel empowered, and we feel we get a picture of who we could be, and we feel more energized. And so, yeah, teachers and parents, I think one of the most important things they can do, and it takes some reflection, is like, what is most awe inspiring for them, and how do they share it? And I feel, you know, with respect to parenting, you know, there are things that have moved me to awe through my life and like I've given it to my daughters, I think, in this complicated world of teaching and parenting, one of the questions you can ask is like, do they know what I feel awe for? And then if they do, it's up to them to put it into their own lives.
On our next episode of The Science of Happiness, we're excited to be diving into a three part series on the science of love. The first question we're exploring is, what makes love last? A parapsychologist interviewed over 3000 couples over a span of decades to find the answer.
JOHN GOTTMAN: We did the research and looked at both the masters and disasters of relationships, and empirically found what makes relationships work.
DACHER KELTNER: It boils down to seven things to try with your partner over seven days. Day one, do a 10 minute check in.
JULIE: And trying not to bring up the checklist of things that every couple has to do. And instead, you really want to see how did people feel about their day? What were the highs? What were the lows?
DACHER KELTNER: We'll explore the seven day love challenge on the next episode of The Science of Happiness.
Thanks for joining us on The Science of Happiness. This episode was produced by Noam Osband. Our associate producers are Dasha Zerboni and Emily Brower.
Our sound designer is Jennie Cataldo of Accompany Studios. Shuka Kalantari is our executive producer. I'm your host, Dacher Keltner. Have a wonderful day.
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