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Can a simple set of 36 questions build love and intimacy? We explore the science behind how the questions we ask and the way we listen shape our closest relationships.
Episode summary: Can 36 questions really bring people closer? In this episode of The Science of Happiness, we break down the science behind a practice designed to deepen connection—whether in romantic relationships or friendships. We’re joined by Amber and Ben Wallin, the hilarious and heartfelt couple who’ve shared their marriage and parenting journey with millions on TikTok. They put these 36 questions to the test. Later, we’ll dive into the power of listening and how it shapes our relationships with Yale psychologist Jieni Zhou.
This is part of our series The Science of Love, supported by The John Templeton Foundation.
Sign up for The Science of Happiness podcast's 7-Day Love Challenge to receive these science-backed practices delivered directly to your inbox: tinyurl.com/7daylovechallenge
Today’s Guests:
AMBER WALLIN is an LA-based comedian, host, and storyteller with over a million followers on TikTok and Instagram. She creates family, relationship and comedy content with her husband Ben Wallin.
Follow Amber on Instagram: @burr_iam
Follow Amber on TikTok: @burr_iam
BEN WALLIN is a writer, content creator and social media personality who creates family, relationship and comedy content with his wife Amber Wallin.
Follow Ben on Instagram: @beynfluencer
Follow Ben on TikTok: @benjaminwallin5
JIENI ZHOU is a Post-doctoral associate at Yale University and an expert in how positive experiences in romantic relationships impact our well-being.
Learn more about Jieni here: https://tinyurl.com/mr3nkf2s
Related The Science of Happiness episodes:
How 7 Days Can Transform Your Relationship: https://tinyurl.com/bdh2ezhr
Why We Need Friends With Shared Interests: https://tinyurl.com/bp8msacj
Who’s Always There For You: https://tinyurl.com/yt3ejj6w
Related Happiness Breaks:
Meditation on Original Love: https://tinyurl.com/ye6baxv3
Loving Kindness Meditation: https://tinyurl.com/2kr4fjz5
Visualizing Your Best Self in Relationships: https://tinyurl.com/4797z2vf
Tell us about your experience with this practice. Email us at happinesspod@berkeley.edu or follow on Instagram @HappinessPod.
Help us share The Science of Happiness! Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts and share this link with someone who might like the show: https://tinyurl.com/2p9h5aap
Transcription:
DACHER KELTNER: This episode was supported by the John Templeton Foundation initiative Spreading Love Through the Media.
AMBER WALLIN: So we met on Tinder, America's favorite hookup app at the time, and it was the summer of 2015 and I had been ghosted that summer before, so I was literally just like, let me swipe away and just see who's available to, like, hang out. Yeah, I was looking for a rebound. What were you looking for?
BEN WALLIN: I think I was looking for someone who had similar values of mine.
AMBER WALLIN: So I told him, I said, I'm going to the dog beach with my dog if you want to come. And ce came to the dog beach, and we talked on that beach for like, what, maybe, like, four or five hours or something?
BEN WALLIN: Yep.
AMBER WALLIN: But then he did the thing where he's like, hey, like, just so you know, I'm gonna be out of town for a couple weeks or so, and I won't be near a phone. And I know this is code for like, oh, this is where this ends. You're gonna ghost me. And Ben was like, no, I'm gonna be with my family in the mountains, in this cabin, where you won't be able to reach me, but I'll write to you. So I was like, you'll write to me, sure. And then one day, I go to my mailbox and he had written letters to me, and he'd even like, picked a flower from the mountain that you were staying on, and those were like, folded into the letters. So I was like, Oh, this guy is different.
AMBER WALLIN: The letters have stopped. The romance has stopped.
BEN WALLIN: I wrote you a letter fairly recently.
AMBER WALLIN: Where?
BEN WALLIN: I wrote you a Mother's Day card, a Mother's Day letter.
AMBER WALLIN: Do you know what today is? Mother's Day was May of last year.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, that's right.
AMBER WALLIN: You did not help your case.
BEN WALLIN: Dang.
DACHER KELTNER: This is the Science of Happiness, and I'm Dacher Keltner, this month, we're focusing on the Science of Love, uncovering the research behind the connections that shape us, and sharing expert insights and practical tips to create deeper, more fulfilling relationships. We explore things like how to strengthen your love in seven days and tips on making friends as an adult. Today, we're diving into a fascinating practice, 36 questions that have been shown to strengthen love and deepen connection, whether in a romantic relationship or a friendship. Joining us are Amber and Ben Wallin, a married couple who've captivated millions on TikTok with their humor, heart, and raw, authentic moments as partners and parents. They recently put these 36 questions to the test, and we're going to hear what the experience was like for them, and later in the show, we'll explore the power of good listening, as researcher Jieni Zhou explains,
JIENI ZHOU: Listening may seem very mundane, but listening provides this sense of safety, and that creates a space for sheer positive emotions.
DACHER KELTNER: More after this break.
Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Joining us today are Amber and Ben Wallin. They've shared the highs and lows of marriage and parenting with millions on social media, especially TikTok, offering an honest and heartfelt look into their lives. For our show, they took turns asking each other 36 science backed questions designed to spark meaningful conversation and strengthen relationships. Our podcast executive producer Shuka Kalantari sat down with Amber and Ben to hear how it went. Here's part of their conversation.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Amber and Ben, thanks so much for being here.
BEN WALLIN:Thank you, Shuka.
AMBER WALLIN:I'm happy to be here with you.
SHUKA KALANTARI: The way that you do 36 questions is it's set up into three sets of different questions, starting with lighter, more fun questions, and then progressing into deeper and much more personal ones. And the goal of this is for both people to take turns answering the questions and then also truly listening to one another. What in your life right now made you want to kind of delve into this practice with one another.
AMBER WALLIN: We have a two year old going on, you know, 18, and then I'm currently pregnant, so we'll have two kids this May. So we'll have a three year old and then a newborn in May. And sometimes I'm just like, so busy and I'm ripping and running and thinking about the baby in my belly and the baby at daycare and bills and all these things that I think these questions like, forced us to just sit down and ask each other, like, “how are you” or “what's going on in your head.” And we don't get that opportunity as much as we definitely should. I really saw the questions as an opportunity to be like, Oh, let me like, talk to this person that I truly love, and I just haven't been curious about in the last month or so.
BEN WALLIN: And I think, like when we first started dating, it was easy. To sort of just talk with you about the world, the universe, because that's all we needed to do, like we weren't living together, we didn't have other responsibilities. And when other responsibilities come in, you need to take time and with intentionality. And a lot of people do that through therapy, but doing these 36 questions is way cheaper than therapy. Way cheaper. You could just download them.
AMBER WALLIN: We've done therapy too, though.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, no, we've done therapy too, but I think it was a little bit easier to set this up.
SHUKA KALANTARI: So the questions in this first set are, when was the last time you sang to yourself or sung to someone else? Or if you could wake up tomorrow and have gained any one quality or ability, what would it be? So what were some of the questions that you tackled from that first set?
AMBER WALLIN: The qualities that we wanted in ourselves we found in each other. Like, I remember you asking me the question about the quality, and I was like, I wish I had the ability to see in the way that you do that everything is like, so temporary, and everything's gonna be okay. Like, you know, let's just name, like, the fires, the LA fire situation that we were recently evacuated for. Like, I'm very like, there's no end to this. They'll just keep burning until, like, I'll just spiral. And so a quality I wish I had is Ben's ability to be like, This is gonna slowly die down and not be as big of an issue in like a week two weeks three, I didn't realize how many ways I admired you and wanted to be like you. So that was just fun to see.
SHUKA KALANTARI: And that's in line with the research really. You know, studies show that when we share our personal thoughts and have these intimate conversations, it actually triggers the release of oxytocin, the love hormone in our bodies, and it helps foster trust, closeness and even attraction.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, it was cool to see how we answered even the first set of questions to the simplest ones ended up revealing something to us, like the one about singing Amber sings to our daughter all the time.
AMBER WALLIN: Oh yeah.
BEN WALLIN: All the time.
AMBER WALLIN: She asked me, like, Mommy, can you stop?
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, can you stop?
And Amber said something as we were discussing this question, like, Ben, I know my singing annoys you. I said, No, no, no, it doesn't annoy me. I actually like when you sing, but you actually don't sing me a song. You don't say, hey, Ben, I want to sing this song to you. And I think if you did that, I would really enjoy that. I really like the intentionality. And I realized in that question that I was feeling a little jealous, that I actually want to be sung too. And so when we were having this discussion, I was like, why don't you come to me and say, hey, Ben, I want to sing you a song, and I can bust out my guitar.
AMBER WALLIN: Like a fifth grade talent show.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, I think that would be so cute.
SHUKA KALANTARI: On to the second set of questions, which are more probing than the first one. And these are questions like, “what do you value most in a friendship?” “What is the most treasured memory,” or “what is your most terrible memory?” What were some of the questions that you guys talked about that were most impactful or stayed in your mind?
AMBER WALLIN: Well, one of your most terrible memories was I kind of had a pretty complicated birth, yeah, which is so interesting to me, because as horrible as that was, I was mostly like in surgery for it, you know, yeah, as close I didn't even it didn't even occur to me what you not knocked out were feeling like during that time, like I genuinely yesterday. And when you were talking about that time I was in the hospital, when I had wowed, I was like, Oh yeah, that did happen.
BEN WALLIN: Worst memory ever. She had to go into surgery. And one of the images I have was like, Amber reaching her hand out, being like, take care of my baby. I'm like, oh my gosh, this bitch better not die. I cannot do this without her. I think that might also be one of your mom's worst memories.
AMBER WALLIN: Yeah, probably.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah. It was.
AMBER WALLIN: And I’m probably thinking like, why didn't you record this? Pull the camera out. You know, the thespian, to me, is like, give us our General Hospital. Grey's Anatomy moment. Like, get it together.
BEN WALLIN: Everything is content, even a traumatic birth, I think also Amber, being pregnant. These questions sort of got me in a mind of like, God, she's gonna do this again. She's gonna go through this again. And I need to be more prepared for the traumatic potential of a traumatic birth, right? I think a lot of people, they don't ask these kinds of questions, and then they're just surprised. They're just surprised when life happens to them. People say you can't be prepared for the worst, but you can, I think you can be mentally prepared for the worst, and it's these kinds of questions that help you deal with that kind of anxiety and stress so that it's it doesn't feel completely new when you confront it head on.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Now we're at the third set of questions, really deeper emotional questions, like, “when did you last cry in front of another person?” or “what if anything is too serious to be joked about?” The idea is that it pushes you to engage on a deeper emotional level. And so what were some of the other questions that you guys talked about?
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, we went through them all. We spent two hours doing this, by the way.
AMBER WALLIN: Yes, up there crying like we don’t see eachother every day.
BEN WALLIN: Which is crazy. These questions, like we do hang out all the time, but not with that level of intentionality. The one about, like, who in your family that you would be afraid to lose, is essentially the question. And I know I was like, oh, the number one person for Amber would be her mom. But as she started to talk about that, she started to get a little emotional, right? And I was able to just listen to her, because we know that we're gonna lose our parents first. And it was, you ended up crying. And I was like, I didn't expect that, like I knew the answer. But even just letting Amber cry, I'm getting emotional now, was like, a really cool experience for me to be like, oh, I'm just gonna hold this space because sometimes you have to be ready for that. And knowing that this is gonna be a hard loss, we don't wanna think about it, but it's going to happen. And to prep ourselves for that, and for me as the partner to support Amber was just like a really eye opening experience for me. So even couples who think they know each other really well and can even predict how their partner is going to answer that question, you should still do it, because how they answer it and how they respond to it is going to teach you something as well.
SHUKA KALANTARI: I love that.
BEN WALLIN: But the one about joking, yes, I made a joke about getting content, about the potential of losing a family member as a joke, right? And Amber was really in a bad place. We got some news about your grandma, and I was like, well, if she passes and we can go see your family and get content. And Amber was not feeling that, and I was trying to, like lighten the mood, but sometimes you don't need to lighten the mood. You just need to let people be fucking sad. And I think for me, I struggle with that because I don't like emotions. Like, as a dude, it's my responsibility not to like emotions. That is how I'm conditioned. And I have to be comfortable with just Amber sobbing, and that's okay.
AMBER WALLIN: Well, we also discussed in that moment, like, I am a true comedian and clown. So we discussed the situation, like, even now we can joke about this traumatic birth situation, it just needs, like, proximity and time.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah.
SHUKA KALANTARI: What were you feeling after that two hour conversation, after you finished all these sets of questions, what was going on in your body and minds?
AMBER WALLIN: Prior to dating Ben, I would kind of date like cool, smoldering, mysterious guys.
BEN WALLIN: I'm not that.
AMBER WALLIN: Like a tattoo artist or like a drummer. Like this would be, like, the coolest looking guy at the party with all these tattoos and a beard and piercings. And so I think for the first time, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna, like, listen to somebody talk about poetry and ask me questions. And I was just very intrigued. So we just like, like, you were genuinely interested, and you were, to this day, you're such a good listener. But I have not spoken to you, undivided time for two hours and what feels like years. Yeah, I mean, like our first date was on the dog beach talking for four or five hours because we didn't have kids. And, like, even now, I cannot think of a Saturday where I just have four hours to, like, look you in the eye and talk to you. So that felt really nice. And I think something that'll probably stick with us is like, how do we carve out time to just like, look at each other and talk and be curious?
BEN WALLIN: Yeah, that was exactly what I was feeling as soon as we finished that, I was like, Wait, there are more questions here. I want to delve into even more. Like, I feel like I could, we could do these same set of 36 questions 10 years from now, and we'll have different answers.
SHUKA KALANTARI: You know this practice was 45 minutes. You did two hours, which is amazing. You can do it as long as you want, but, you know, it's not always possible to do that. And so I wonder, are there any form of, maybe micro practices that you're also going to take from this?
AMBER WALLIN: I think before doing this, I would be like, It's so cheesy, like, come with prompts or questions, but at least for our next date, we are not allowed to talk about Google Calendar, the nanny coming, the dogs, vet bill, the next prenatal ultrasound. We're not allowed to talk about any responsibilities, like we just have to ask each other questions about each other's life, because usually that'll help.
BEN WALLIN: Usually, when we plan dates, we're just choosing a restaurant or an event or a movie, right? So we're choosing an environment, but we're not really choosing how we want to deepen our relationship. I plan most of the dates. So when I do a date, I'm gonna be like, hey, this date, we're gonna discuss our hopes and dreams for like, 2025 and it sounds so stupid and cheesy, but I tell you, like, when you come with an intentionality to a date and. Just choosing an environment you end up feeling that's what I was feeling like. That's why I wanted to have sex so badly after this two hour thing. Like I was like, why am I so horny right now? But we had to go pick up Wilde from the school. That's what's happening when you're coming with these intentional conversations. And I think it might sound stupid, but you're gonna leave horny.
SHUKA KALANTARI: That lines up with the research. We just did an episode about this with the psychologist Julie and John Gottman, who found that one of the biggest keys to maintaining a relationship and keeping the sexual part alive is scheduling date nights. So kudos.
AMBER WALLIN: It definitely did.
BEN WALLIN: Yeah. Immediately, when we were done, I was like, wow, I feel closer to Amber. I want to do this again. There's no reason why we can't do something like this again and with intentionality, and then record it and make content. Yeah.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Amber and Ben, thank you for trying the 36 questions practice together, and thank you for being on the science of happiness.
BEN WALLIN: Thank you. This was a treat.
AMBER WALLIN: Thank you. I love being happy with science.
DACHER KELTNER: Asking good questions is key to building relationships, but how we listen is just as important.
JIENI ZHOU: I think nowadays, everything is so fast paced and people are lacking a lot of patience to really listen to each other and really understand where people are coming from, but listening is a really powerful tool that's not very hard to implement.
DACHER KELTNER: Up next, Yale researcher Jieni Zhou explains how authentic listening creates connection and how what counts as good listening can vary across cultures.
Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Listening may seem like a simple everyday act, but it can create a sense of safety, deepen our relationships and even shape the way we see and connect with the world. But not all listening is equal. Some ways of listening bring us closer, while others leave us feeling unheard. Yale researcher Jieni Zhou has studied how active listening can foster empathy, trust and emotional security. Shuka spoke with her to learn about what strategies we can use to become better listeners and explore how listening differs across cultures. Here's part of their conversation.
SHUKA KALANTARI: There's lots of types of listening, like my kids are half listening to me most of the times, but not really listening. And in your own research, you distinguish between high quality and low quality listening, with the former being linked to more empathy, trust, emotional security. So what specific behaviors define high quality listening?
JIENI ZHOU: I always tell people the first thing is, listen to understand, not listen to respond, because sometimes people are too eager to express themselves, so pause your thoughts, be present in the moment and also asking follow up questions, like you can paraphrase them and double check if that's what they were saying, making eye contact, nodding, leaning in and providing validation will be really important, and asking open ended questions, and I think one way that helps asking good questions is stay curious, trying to validate the other person's perspective more by saying “yes, and” instead of “yes, but.”
SHUKA KALANTARI: I'm curious why you think this process of asking open ended questions, follow up questions and feeling listened to. Why is it so integral in relationship, security and feeling safe within your own relationships?
JIENI ZHOU: Because self disclosure is kind of a crucial element in building relationships. Our Aaron's 36 questions is trying to kind of accelerate that process, to provide questions that are not just superficial on the surface level, but more about what people like, their preferences, their values, their personal experience.
SHUKA KALANTARI: I found this really interesting, that the research shows that when we feel truly listened to, we're more empathic and trusting of others, and then that, in turn, makes us more likely to offer that same level of listening in return. I was wondering if you could explain that positive feedback loop, how that works?
JIENI ZHOU: When one person is listening to you well, that allows you to feel safe and you disclose more in terms of your personal perspectives and stories, and that also makes their listening easier, because you are telling a genuine story that can sustain their attention and. That allows you to feel together in that moment. High quality listening kind of promotes this sense of togetherness. And one way that could be manifested is as shared positive emotional synchrony. So when you feel that you are closer, you feel the need to understand each other. So when you have deeper bonds that allows you to kind of reciprocate the same level of high quality listening.
SHUKA KALANTARI: A lot of the research we're talking about have been studied on the quote, unquote, W.E.I.R.D. population, right? Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic and research, including your own, suggests that different cultures emphasize different kinds of emotional experiences as important in their relationships. How might this inform the way we think about and engage in conversations across cultures?
JIENI ZHOU: For example, in Western cultures, good listeners are expected to display like frequent, direct eye contact, nodding, providing kind of verbal affirmations, whereas in Japan or non western cultures, research shows that high quality listening may involve maintaining respectful silence, and in some cultures, direct eye contact may not be perceived as polite or paying attention, so the emphasis is to kind of paying close attention without interrupting or imposing on the speaker's thoughts. So I think this will be an important thing that people be aware of when you communicate with people from different cultural contexts. So things that we perceive as indicators for high quality listening may not be exactly the same in other cultures. A lot of times, we use our theory, our concept that developed from the W.E.I.R.D. cultures, and apply it in the East Asian or other non western culture contexts that usually just don't fit.
SHUKA KALANTARI: If you could see, like a common thread, you know, whether you're in the west, east Asian, Middle East or whatnot. What would you say is one or two pieces of advice that globally could be implemented for being a good listener?
JIENI ZHOU: I will say a common thread will be, be in the presence. Because I think all these techniques or strategies like, oh, paraphrasing, showing validation, sometimes can be like a formula that people are just trying to implement without really listening to each other. So, you know, some companies use, like, active listening training, and we don't really see people genuinely listen to each other. They just use those very formulaic technique to respond to each other. So be mindful in the present to feel each other, to understand each other. And I think that should apply to all cultures that you are in there with them, trying to understand their experience. So that's my suggestion across cultures.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Be present.
JIENI ZHOU: Yeah.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Thank you, Jieni Zhou, for joining us on The Science of Happiness.
JIENI ZHOU: Thank you so much for having me. It was great talking to you.
DACHER KELTNER: On our next episode of The Science of Happiness, we're exploring a form of love that research suggests may even be more essential than romance. Friendship.
MARISA FRANCO: We just treat friendship as something that's trivial, something that we don't have to put effort into, and we have this all wrong, because our romantic relationships thrive the most when we consider our romantic partners our friends. It's friendship that is at the center of the success of romantic partnerships.
DACHER KELTNER: Join us as we uncover the science of making and maintaining friendships. Thanks for joining us on The Science of Happiness. Our associate producers are Emily Brower and Dasha Zerboni. Our sound designer is Jennie Cataldo of Accompany Studios. Shuka Kalantari is our executive producer. I'm your host, Dacher Keltner.
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