PODCASTThe Greater Good Podcast

Scroll down for a transcription of this episode.

Today’s Guests:

DACHER KELTNER, Ph.D is the executive editor of Greater Good Magazine, and is faculty director and a co-founder of the Greater Good Science Center.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN is the host of "The Greater Good Podcast."

Transcription:

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Welcome to the Greater Good Podcast. I'm Michael Bergeisen. In this, our first Greater Good Podcast, I'm talking with Dacher Keltner, the executive editor of Greater Good magazine and the faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley, where he's also a professor of psychology. Dacher is a leader in the scientific study of positive behaviors and emotions, such as compassion, empathy, joy, and awe. He's also the author of the bestselling book, Born to Be Good, The Science of a Meaningful Life. Dacher, welcome to the Greater Good Podcast.

DACHER KELTNER: It's great to be here, Michael. Thank you.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: The Science of a Meaningful Life, that's the subtitle of your book, and it's also the tagline of Greater Good magazine. How would you describe the science of a meaningful life, and how does it differ from other areas of scientific research?

DACHER KELTNER: Well, I think there are a couple of reasons why, we thought that meaningful was really a really good thing to emphasize. And and one is that what what is really meaningful is that which exists between people. And as we started both as I started to study this for the science for my book and then the content of Greater Good magazine, one of the the strong conclusions that the science of happiness and science of well-being and and science of health arrives at is that meaningful social connection is the most direct pathway to improving your health, improving your happiness, and improving the strength of your community. And so that's why we prioritize meaningful, which is is it's a sense of connection, it's a sense of shared story and shared understanding that is really the the heart of meaning. And I think the second reason that we really, we think this has a lot of traction and why we prioritized it is is, to honor how, we all get there in different ways and to think about individual variations in what it means to lead a meaningful life, and to build up healthy community. And so some people find meaning in, you know, sort of sensory pursuits. Some people find it in beauty. Some people find it in kindness. That's a very interesting question scientifically when we think about individual differences. And so meaning really captures that that theme that really we all, given our genetic constitution and our upbringing and the culture we're born into, find this sense of connection and happiness in different ways. And so meaning is a good way to get to that.

MICHAEL: The title of your book, Born to Be Good, suggests that you concluded that as a result of evolution, we humans are literally born to be good. What in the science has caused you to come to that conclusion?

DACHER KELTNER: Well, you know, and the thesis that we're born to be good often raises eyebrows in scientific circles. And also, it raises eyebrows in people who are steeped in Western thought, where we tend to believe in original sin, and we're selfish by nature, and we're competitive, and and the like. So the first thing that really convinced me that we're born to be good is the, kind of this this this paradigm shift in evolutionary thought, which is happening as the result of studies of hunter gatherer peoples and our primate relatives, which is is arriving at this notion that humans and our hominid predecessors to do the basic tasks of evolution, have offspring, get them to the age of viability, get food, protect ourselves, and the like. We did this in really cooperative groups that selected for, people with the ability to empathize or the ability to be kind to strangers or the ability to, reconcile in the face of conflict. And so those broad arguments for me, and I write about this in Born to Be Good said, this is not being good is not a a luxury or sort of a a an opportunity we have in times of ease. It's an evolutionary prerequisite. And then the second thing, Michael, that really convinced me is the kind of neuroscience and biological science that we do and that is really growing in in the science of human emotion, which where we're starting to find that there are nerves in your chest that help you connect, that there are little chemicals like oxytocin that really drive altruistic behavior. And we just published a a paper in our lab showing, there's a little gene on your third chromosome related to oxytocin that predicts, you know, altruistic behavior, empathetic behavior. So we're really reconceptualizing what human nature is given these these forces. How does that view account for the,

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: You know, pretty clear and horrendous cruelty that we've seen really throughout humankind, but especially as in the twentieth and twenty first century from Auschwitz to the killing fields of Cambodia to the genocides in Rwanda and in Darfur?

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. You know, mean, that's one of the most important questions you can you can ask about this perspective. And I think, I think this born to be good thesis sheds important light on that question. And, you know, one answer is the kind of the Walt Whitman answer, which is, you know, we are many things as a human our species is. We are born to be good, and we have absolutely astonishing capacities for evil, right, and for dislike and genocide and the like. You know, one of the issues of Greater Good magazine was devoted to the topic of are we born racist? And there are a lot of data, brain data, genetic data, emotion data that say, we have this sort of regrettable tendency toward toward disliking and being harmful to towards those who are different. Right? So we're many things as a species. But the I think the born to be good thesis, what it also helps us think about when you think about the genocide in in Rwanda or Cambodia or or the Holocaust is what are you need strong cultural factors as well to turn on these these pro social tendencies. Right? You need, we know, and it's it's a almost a truism that you need strong, secure, warm families, right, to amplify these prosocial tendencies. What we know about Nazism is, as scientists are starting to discover, is that they there were very hostile violent parenting tendencies in place in that culture. Well, that probably snuffed out these more prosocial tendencies. One other thought, you know, we know, that our prosocial tendencies, our our tendency to give to strangers, our ability to cooperate are enabled by things like more abundant resources or a culture that that places emphasis on prosocial ideas. Right? Just hearing the word hug, for example, or care makes participants more altruistic in experiments. And so that beginning with the idea of this is what the prosocial nervous system is, we can then gain insights about what are the cultural processes that turn it on.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: But if we have both the the inclinations to cruelty and to prosocial behavior, what are some additional strategies that we can use to cultivate compassion and to induce humans to act on those compassionate instincts?

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. You know, I mean, in a way, that's the most important question that comes out of this research. Right? We know with new scientific studies on caring and compassion, couple of examples. We know it makes you happier to be giving and compassionate for yourself than if you indulge a desire. We know that caregiving in recent studies increases your longevity in the later stages of life. So there are a lot of good reasons to be compassionate. It's a it's a something that you see as Karn Armstrong suggests running through all the great spiritual ethical traditions in human cultures is this emphasis on compassion. The big question, Michael, like you you raise is, alright. You know, what do we do in terms of policy? What do we do in terms of educational practice, family practice? And and scientists have taken that task on, you know. And what we're learning, for example, is if at the dinner time table, if family members talk about caring and suffering and altruism in the narratives that they tell, those kids, become more compassionate. We know that basic mindfulness that parents can teach their kids of taking a deep breath, using language to reflect on their experience, actually, in longitudinal studies makes those kids more empathetic and compassionate. We know, that giving kids a sense of chores, duties, and working for others, longitudinally makes kids more compassionate. So there are a lot of neat new discoveries on the question of how you make people and children in particular more compassionate.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Speaking of younger people, you, as a professor at UC Berkeley, you work quite a bit with undergraduates, so people in their teens and early twenties. And do you have any thoughts about the differences in this generation as compared to teenagers and 20 and earlier generations in their approach to compassion and the way they, they pursue happiness.

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. What we know from survey research is something really interesting, which is that the last twenty years of American youth, I think a lot of parents out there would quickly recognize this, that, you know, starting in the mid nineteen eighties, you know, when Gordon Gekko declared the greed is good and the stock market went crazy and people shifted from, you know, the Peace Corps to working on Wall Street. What we know in that age sector is that, it became one of the most materialistic, self interested groups of people. And regrettably, that's my age group, kind of the 30 to 50 year olds out there in the audience. And and I think what we're seeing in the 20 year olds of today is a reflection upon the shortcomings of that set of values. Right? With the financial crisis, the joblessness, the concern over global climate change, and then the sense of cultural malaise that there's something askew in our culture. And so when I see to your question, Michael, you know, when I interact as I do on a daily basis with the 18 to 20 year olds today, they're shifting. There's a a shift in values, and we're starting to see that in survey data that they're moving more toward public service. They're more interested in the problems in developing countries than ten years ago, and I think they will return to compassion. I think it's one of the reasons, for example, why the Dalai Lama is now, you know, recognized as as a hero by more people than almost any other broad cultural figure because of his emphasis on compassion.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Focusing on something else contemporary, technology. Yeah. Is there any science? Are there any studies that provide insight on the question of the effect of modern technology, PDAs, cell phones? Yeah. The effect of that on the ability of people, particularly younger people, to be fully present to life, to Yeah. Experience compassion, to experience deeper happiness, and to to address really deeper if.

DACHER V: Yeah. I mean, that is, perhaps one of the most, important applied questions that comes out of this literature. You know, what are these new technologies doing to the born to be good regions of the nervous system, right, which are founded on our abilities to empathize and to look people in the eye and to hear what they're saying. And does all this text messaging and Facebook work, does it really distract us from, those essential tendencies? What we know definitively, and the young people whom I teach this to, recoil at these findings, but but this is rock solid, which is immersion in video games is bad for compassion, period. There are 25, 30 studies, rigorous controlled studies of video games. And what we know is if you play a lot of video games, violent ones, which ten to fifteen percent of young men at colleges do, you know, they're spending ten, twenty hours a week. They, the compassion regions of the nervous system are quieter. They're more aggressive to strangers. They're less altruistic. They read other people's emotions less effectively. That's bad news. And and it's only expanding as a cultural practice. What about text messaging? Parents ask me this all the time. You know, they're and it's hysterical. They give their child a cell phone, and then they get the first bill, and it come you know, it's a bible sized bill of, you know text message, you know I mean, teenagers are texting, something like 3,000 times a month. So and we don't know. You know, I think my hypothesis would be that it it it takes it puts a dent in your ability to read emotion and to hear people. On the upside, what it might give people, which is a good thing, is this sense of what we call social capital or social connectedness of anything that I face in life, have my community behind me. So that may be an upside to it. Well, it's an empirical question.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: In the last several years, there have been several books that have used scientific research really as the foundation for what some would consider self help Yeah. Books. Do you have any thoughts about that development? Do think that that's helpful to the science to have science used in that way? And do you think it produces better self help books?

DACHER KELTNER: Boy, as as an author of a scientific book, that's a very loaded question. I do. You know, I think that the you know, I think what we're seeing and your question is really pointing to the tip of an iceberg, which is that it's not only self help books, it's the New York Times that is starting to get interested in, emotion and decision making and happiness. It's PBS and Nova shows and the like. And so the first criterion, you know, from my perspective as a scientist is, do they do justice to the work? Right? But I think, given the reach of of self help books and how seriously people take them, that you can reach a young 16 year old, and get them to learn about the science of oxytocin or what have you, that this is an important development that that that we wanna cultivate.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Dacher, in in this this science of a meaningful life, has there have there been any applications of the science to practical day to day life that you have found to be really impressive or really showing significant impact?

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. You know, science is only as good, in my opinion, as, the culture that it creates and the positive changes that it can bring to society. That's part of our mission, right, as scientists is to develop knowledge that helps people. And you know what, Michael, when I started doing this science, you know, ten, twelve years ago, and was a little bit obscure, you know, how strange to study compassion or well-being or awe or the like, that that question really bothered me, which is, well, is this gonna make things better? And now, you know, ten or twelve years into this, we see amazing proof of of that possibility. Let me give you just a couple of examples. You know, one is in medical treatment, where they are starting to take patients' emotions and sense of trust seriously, where we know that a patient who feels a connection to an MD fares better in the medical treatment and is less likely to sue. And there are now medical programs, for example Johns Hopkins, are patient centered programs that are really changing their curriculum that in part is informed by this new science of compassion and human connection. There is a new survey out that is just out in the last couple of weeks that is finding there's been there's been a lot of science of empathy and kindness and altruism that is fed into bullying programs. Right? And there's a new survey, I think it's by the Department of Justice, that's finding the kids the bullying's on the decline in schools because they're taking the steps to intervene. You know, if you go through grammar schools these days, what you will see is a real emphasis on teaching emotion and empathy and respect. And there are a lot of good data that are saying that we're raising more empathetic kids. So there are a lot of good, success stories out there.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: As someone who's, established himself as a leader in this area of the science of a meaningful life, do you find that people come up to you from time to time and actually look to you to provide answers to them about how to live a happy and and meaningful life? Oh,

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. And well, you know, and it's one of the hardest things like when, you know, I remember I was picking up my daughter from school, and, you know, as parents, we have our bad days. And and I, you know, I was about to go give a talk at the school on, you know, raising happy kids and the like. And I was playing with my daughter, and I accidentally she'd I was, like, swinging her around and she her hand slipped, my daughter went flying out in the air and crashed to the ground. And and I'm sure the whole parent community looked at me like, oh, there's that happiness guy. Look what he does with his kids. You know? And, you know, it it's it's a hard business to to take this science and and lead a more meaningful life on your own terms, you know, and but it's it's and but, yes, the what I find really exciting and and really gratifying is that they're in a way, we're a post enlightenment society, a world. And and it's a world that turns to science to lead a a more meaningful life, that that loves science, and that loves finding out about the the compassion regions of the brain, or finding out about how you can use language to make kids more appreciative or grateful, or how to structure a dinnertime conversation to to teach kids emotional intelligence. And what I get, Michael, are parents and adults and, you know, MDs and lawyers and judges and and people who who want that science to guide the ethical life or the meaningful life. And and I'm lucky to be in a position to give it to them. So it is there is a very personal dimension to this.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: And do you along the same lines, do you ever feel that, you are still in the the beginning stages of this this science and that to some degree, you're a bit like the ancient Greek astronomers who have just started and therefore, you get some things right, but that there'll be a lot of things that you get wrong.

DACHER KELTNER: Oh, yeah. You know, it you know, I think, you know, as a scientist, I was lucky in the following way, is that Charles Darwin, has shaped science more than any human in history, wrote a book about human emotion. And he said, there are all these negative emotions, We did a lot of there are thousands of studies on those. And there are all these amazing positive emotions. And Darwin said, sympathy is our strongest emotion. And we're just scratching the surface of what we'll learn about those emotions. And we've talked about them today, and and we're gonna make mistakes. You know, it as we try to figure out where sympathy is in the nervous system and in the brain, we will make some false starts, and and we'll clarify. There are only there are only one or two studies of the brain of compassion. That's unbelievable. And and we'll it will sharpen and clarify. And and that's the humbling part of science. What I what I have more confidence about is that, you know, as Karn Armstrong writes, you know, all the great one of the great ideas in culture and human thought is about being good. And it's just in all the religions, all the spiritual traditions as a centerpiece. And there, I feel confident that, science has something really new to say that will be part of that conversation.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: It seems that one question that continues to bedevil science, especially neuroscience, is to to find a link in the brain to consciousness. That is a place in the brain where consciousness can directly be traced. Do you think do you have a sense of whether we're making progress in that area and whether we'll we'll find it? Oh,

DACHER KELTNER: Know, it all it's so often you know, every seminar that I teach on emotion and happiness, there's always this stunning moment in the graduate seminar or the undergraduate seminar. It's like, but what about consciousness? And and so, you know, one one way to answer the question is to reduce it to really simple terms and to say, well, what is consciousness? And I think there's, some consensus that it's language, that it's social language, it's the act of communication. It is a sense of awareness of things happening in the body or in the social context. And with respect to your question, is the neuroscience of of these emotions informing our understanding of consciousness? Yes, it is. You know, we there are, you know, half a dozen good studies showing that there are regions of the frontal lobes, very interestingly, that are engaged by things like meditation or narrative, or language, the simple act of labeling something, engages the ventromedial prefrontal cortex right behind the eyes. And that does seem to be a little piece of that layer of consciousness of awareness representation. Mhmm. Boy, when you get into the bigger questions of, well, is that really the seed of consciousness? It's gonna it's gonna take a lot more sophistication than that.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: What new research do you think is on the cutting edge in helping us to better understand both the roots of human goodness and how we can promote it?

DACHER KELTNER: Well, you know, as somebody studies human emotion and the physiology and a little bit of the neuroscience of human emotion, I would frame it as follows, which is that, you know, our listeners probably know a lot about the science of stress, right, and the physiology of stress because there have been fifty years of scientific studies on stress. And we know stress kills, it damages your cells, it damages your brain. We know what the stress part of the body is, from the hypothalamus to the adrenal glands to the pituitary to the release of cortisol in your bloodstream. That is a massive scientific discovery. Right? And it and it sets the stage for why meditation helps you, beat disease because it calms that stress system down. Here's what we don't know, Michael, and which is, well, what about the compassionate nervous system or the those reaches of our brain and body? But what is on the horizon scientifically on this born to be good thesis are lines of research that will start to figure that out. Right? Where how we've evolved regions of brain, nervous system, and body that help us be good to others. And so what we're discovering, for example, is there are regions of the brain, old regions of the brain, like the periaqueductal gray, which is down in the brain stem.

In mammals, it's associated with nurturant behavior. When humans feel compassion, it's activated. That's that's cool. There when you give to charity, a reward center of the brain, called the nucleus accumbens lights up, and what that tells this is a 2,007 paper. What that says is, wow. The brain is wired such that being good becomes rewarding. We know out of the periaqueductal gray are a lot of oxytocin networks, which, and there's a massive oxytocin literature, a little chemical that floats into your brain through your bloodstream in your body that is associated with caring, giving resources to others, the oceanic feeling of connection to other people. There's a neurochemical underpinning to those prosocial feelings. And then we just to round this story out, there's a a lot of scholarship on that's devoting itself to the vagus nerve, which is this bundle of neurons that starts in your spinal cord, calms your heart rate, helps, engage, communicative behaviors that help you connect to others, like nodding your head and making eye contact. And our lab is finding that is associated with the vagus nerve fires when you feel compassion, when you're pro social, and that's gonna pave the way for new therapies and ways of working with depressives or autistic, individuals. So I see that as twenty years of science ahead of us.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: So as you look ahead in this way, do you have your own sense of where the next big breakthrough will be in in in this area of science?

DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. I think that, you know, just a couple of examples, know, and again, sticking with, you know, what I know. We take take that oxytocin system, right, in the in the brain, and we know oxytocin, this little sequence of nine amino acids produced in the hypothalamus, is associated with caring, it's associated with warm parenting behavior. There are select studies finding if you're raised in an orphanage, it damages that part of the system. Probably that system is is is gonna emerge like the cortisol system as this is the heart of healthy adaptation to life. This is one big part of that puzzle. We really don't know where it is in mammals. We we have some beginning understanding of it, but it's that's gonna be a very important set of discoveries. There are gonna be interesting discoveries about, the genetics of prosociality of that help us again clarify what parts of our DNA build up these prosocial nervous systems, how do they go awry in certain mental disorders. Right? And those are stories that the first chapter is only written.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: I will have to leave it there. Thank you very much, Dacher Keltner, for joining us. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

DACHER KELTNER: Well, it's been great to be with you, Michael. Thank you.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: The Greater Good Podcast is a production of the greater good science center at the University of California Berkeley. Jason Marsh is the producer of the Greater Good Podcast. Alton Doe is our intern. Special thanks to the University's Graduate School of Journalism and Milt Wallace for production assistance. You can listen to more Greater Good podcasts and find articles, videos, and other material from Greater Good magazine at www.greatergoodscience.org. I'm Michael Bergeisen.