PODCASTThe Greater Good Podcast

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Today’s Guests:

SRIKUMAR RAO is a speaker, author, former business school professor and creator of Creativity and Personal Mastery (CPM), a course designed to effect personal transformation. He is a TED speaker, and has authored Are You Ready to Succeed: Unconventional Strategies for Achieving Personal Mastery in Business and Life, which is an international best seller, and Happiness at Work: Be Resilient, Motivated and Successful – No Matter What, a best seller on Inc.'s “The Business Book Bestseller List.”

MICHAEL BERGEISEN is the host of "The Greater Good Podcast."

Transcription:

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Welcome to The Greater Good Podcast. I'm Michael Bergeisen In this down economy, it's great to have a job, but it's even better to have a job where you're happy at work. Happiness At Work is the title of the latest book by Professor Srikumar Rao, whose writings and lectures have earned him the nickname The “Happiness Guru” Professor Rao has taught at various top business schools, including the Columbia Business School and the business school at UC Berkeley.

He is also a much in demand lecturer who has spoken at many Fortune 500 corporations, including Google, Microsoft, and Goldman Sachs. He was formerly an executive with Warner Communications and McGraw Hill. In today's program, we'll discuss his ideas about how you can find joy and meaning in even the most challenging jobs.

We'll also consider some critiques about whether efforts to coach ourselves into happiness, succeed, and have support in science. Professor Rao, welcome. Thank you, Michael. It's my pleasure to be with you today. What would you say is the single most important thing we can do to find happiness at work? I 

SRIKUMAR RAO: I think the single most important thing that we can do is to recognize that we do not live in a real world.

We live in a construct and we made it. That's actually a hugely liberating concept because if what we live in is the reality, then we're stuck. There's nothing we can do about it. Grin and bear it. But if what we are living in is a reality, then there's a lot we can do about it. We can deconstruct the parts of it that are not working, that we don't like and build it up again.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: So in what sense do you say that we live in a construct rather than the real world? We have 

SRIKUMAR RAO: what I call mental models and a mental model is a notion we have that this is the way the world works now. You have dozens of mental models, maybe hundreds of mental models. We've got a model for everything. How to get a job, how to go ahead in a job, how to find a.

Partner to marry, how to bring up children, how to pick a movie to go to, or a restaurant to eat at. The problem isn't that we have models. Models are wonderful, time-saving, things that we use. The problem is that we don't recognize that we have models. We think this is the way the world works, but that's not the way the world works.

That's our model. Of the way the world works. And the more we believe in the model, the more evidence we get that this in fact is the way the world works. And very soon we have a thick walled silo around us, and we don't even know that we are in a silo, which we constructed ourselves. Can you give us an example of a mental model of this kind?

Wonderful. Where are you located, Michael? In Berkeley, California. Okay. So in California, traffic jams are alive and well. Is that correct? Very much yes. Okay, so let take the scenario. You are stuck in a traffic jam and the air conditioner in your car has failed, and the thermometer is north of a hundred and you hot and sweaty and stuck.

And as you're moving, somebody suddenly cuts across, you almost causes an accident. Then he gets in front, almost causes another accident and weaves desperately in and out. You got the scenario? I do. Okay. Now think about your reaction to that person. Would it be fair to say that your thoughts are not those of loving kindness?

Very likely. Yes. Alright. Now, supposing I were to share some information with you. The person who behaved in this inconsiderate fashion had just received news that his son was involved in a very serious accident and the doctors had to operate immediately. There isn't even any time to get consent, and he's desperately trying to get to the hospital, and he doesn't know whether he'll ever see his son alive or not.

Now if I share that information with you, do you feel your thoughts of anger and irritation dissipate to be replaced by compassion for a fellow human being in a not so good situation? Hopefully, yes. Okay. So that's the point I'm trying to make. You don't really know whether the person who cut you off was an inconsiderate jerk or a distraught father.

In all likelihood, you will never know, but it also doesn't really matter. You have the choice of deciding which emotional domain you are going to occupy. And much of the time we have this choice in life and much of the time we occupy the domain, which leads to stress, to anger, to frustration, and various not so nice places.

And we do it by default because we don't recognize that we have a choice. And we instinctively, habitually choose the one which doesn't take us to a nice place. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: And where do these mental models arise from? You say we have many, perhaps hundreds or a hundred or more. Where or what causes them?

What gives rise to them? 

SRIKUMAR RAO: We are basically conditioned into it. It begins at a very young age. We are indoctrinated by our parents, our relatives, our peers, coaches, friends, society, media all around. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: What are your. Suggestions about how we can ultimately be aware of the models and alter them if they're taking away from our happiness.

SRIKUMAR RAO: In my book and in my program, we have several steps. The first step is to become aware that we are using mental models. Most of the time we don't even recognize that we are using mental models. Lemme give you an instance when I was growing up in India, and I went to Delhi University, which was a very liberal university, but everybody around me was a leftist.

So their capitalist was a big evil thing. And if you really wanted in salamon, you called him a capitalist. And then I come to the United States, and when I became a citizen, I had to swear that I was not a communist and had never been a communist. And here communism is the evil thing. So this is a reflex.

I got indoctrinated into it, but fortunately I also studied economics. So I wasn't at all sure that capitalism was a bad thing. And equally, I have also studied communism, and there are certain aspects of it which I think we could profitably emulate. So I don't think communism by itself is a bad thing, quote unquote.

But very few people have actually examined the underpinnings of the belief systems that they hold. They simply unquestioningly react to their conditioning. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: As you've developed your thinking about conditioning and the like, have you found science to be useful either in developing your theory about models or you're thinking about how to alter models when they're not helpful to us?

SRIKUMAR RAO: Absolutely. I happened to come from a physics background. I was in a major in physics in my undergraduate and always been very interested in physics. And basically what happens is I've developed my course based on is it working for you? So what I tell everyone who goes through my program is every time you are in a situation that you find unpleasant, every time you are using one or more mental models than are not serving you well, I.

And I have a structured process, which is laid out in my book for you to look at the mental model that you're using. And within that mental model, there are several assumptions embedded. And you look at them and say, is this really true? Is it just possible that X, whatever X may be the truth instead?

And as you start examining it, you'll be amazed at how many of your strongly held views of the world start collapsing. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Now along these same lines, you also contend that in addition to these models that are constructed or conditioned into us, that we are also fundamentally hardwired, as you put it, to be happy.

Why do you say that? And is there any scientific evidence to support that contention? 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Scientific evidence is tough to come by for that one, but let me put it to you as part of your experience. Tell me, Michael, have you ever been. Exposed to a scene of such tremendous beauty. Maybe a mountain, maybe a rainbow, maybe the ocean that it took you outside of yourself to a place of great calm and serenity.

I live in California, of course. Okay, fine. Now let me ask you a question. Have you ever wondered why that happened? 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: I've always assumed that it's being in awe of the beauty. Then I'm experiencing lemme take it 

SRIKUMAR RAO: further. The reason it happened, Michael, is because at that particular instant, somehow you accepted the universe exactly as it was.

You didn't say, that's a beautiful rainbow, but it's way off to the side. And if I could move it 200 yards to the right, it would be ever so much better. You didn't say, that's a beautiful valley, but the tree in the foreground has too many crooked branches and you give me a chainsaw in 20 minutes and I'll make it better.

Oh no. The off-center rainbow was fine. The tree with the crooked branches is fine, and the moment you accepted that your habitual wanting self dropped away and you didn't have to do anything to experience the happiness, that's an innate part of you. It rose up and engulfed you. And the point I'm trying to make, Michael, is that your life right now with all of the problems that you have, with all of the problems that you think you have is every bit is perfect.

What are you doing is you're not accepting it and you're resisting it with every fiber of your being because say no, not this, I don't accept it. It's got to be like this. And you're trying to force changes. And when you try to force changes, you are buying into what I call the if then model. And the if then model says, if this happens, then I will be happy.

And the if then model itself is fundamentally flawed. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: And are you aware of any or have you used any scientific studies to, to come to that conclusion or to support the conclusion? Is there any science out there? Not 

SRIKUMAR RAO: scientific study. This I draw upon deep wellsprings of philosophy. And I am looking to see science catching, and by the way, science is catching up, but it's catching up much lower than we would like, and part of the reason for that is it's extremely difficult to operationalize some of these concepts.

So we are just about getting to the point where we're investigating the. The outer layers of some of the concepts that I'm now sharing with you and your readers. So hopefully we'll get there sometime. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: I'd like to change gears here and ask you about some critiques of book, like books like yours that offer suggestions and how we can change our psychology, our minds and hearts.

And question is it enough to use. The suggestions in self-help books, or do we need to make more fundamental changes, deep changes that require more rigorous and consistent efforts than self-help books usually lead to. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Okay. I will not comment on self-help books because I'm not a big fan of self-help books and I do not consider my book a self-help book.

That's very important. I do want your readers to understand that I do not consider my book a self-help book, and let me explain why. Frequently at Turning Points, the two most important turning points are your birthday and New Year's Day. Everybody goes something like, from now on things are gonna be different.

I'm going to eat healthy exercise regularly, catch up on my backlog, stop procrastinating, et cetera, et cetera. Do you do that, Michael? Sometimes yes. Okay. By and large, it doesn't work very well. In fact, there's a reason why exercise clubs sign up many times, more members than they can handle in late December because they know that come January 15, there's gonna be plenty of room in the treadmill signup sheets.

Anytime you try to bring about behavioral change by an effort or will. You are doing violence to yourself, and most of us try to bring about change by an effort, a will, and self-help books give us techniques to use that will better. I'm going to stop eating so much. I'm going to quit smoking, et cetera, et cetera.

In my program there is behavioral change. All you gotta go do is go on my website and read the testimonials for yourself. These are all real identified people and this change is lasting and it happens because it does not depend upon. An effort of will. What I do is I get persons to examine the mental models that they're using to view the world, and as you make changes on that level, they literally become a different person.

And as you become a different person, behavioral change happens almost effortlessly as a byproduct. So that's why I like to make a clear distinction between a typical self-help book. In my book, I repeat, I do not consider my book a self-help book. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Alright, fair enough. Let me explore this a bit more. In your book, happiness at Work, you note that the mind is like a wild horse, often galloping uncontrollably.

Yeah. Flitting. Flitting from subject to subject, which I think any of us who thought about that, definitely agree with. And you also suggest that a key part to finding happiness at work and elsewhere is to train that constantly chattering mind and bring it under control because the chattering is so often negative and self-defeating.

That's correct. And you do an exercise to allow us to see this chatter. But a critic might say that the exercise you suggest, which is just sitting once and watching your mind chatter, that's not nearly enough for the extremely difficult task of bringing the chattering mind under control.

SRIKUMAR RAO: Actually what you just stated is not correct. Michael wh when I recommend doing it once basically what that does. Is it lets you understand how auto control your mind is. That is nowhere enough to bring it under control. In fact, my my thesis is that for most of us in the kinda lives we leave, bringing it under control is a pipe dream.

It's not gonna happen. What you can do is you can direct it in directions which are not dysfunctional much of the time. And even a slight movement you make in that direction makes a huge difference in your life, and that is doable. I. And you are correct. Just observing it once is not going to do it.

Actually have a structured series of exercises which are described in my first book, are you ready to succeed? Which will help you get started. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: What would you say to the observation though, that you do need a constant and diligent, perhaps lifelong practice, say, meditation or some other contemplated practice to control, if you will, the chattering or WildHorse mind?

SRIKUMAR RAO: In fact, if you go to my website and read the syllabus for my program, one of the things that I stated at the very beginning is that this is a journey for which there is no end. This isn't a program which ends, this is a journey you are embarking on, which will last the rest of your life. And 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Do you find that most or many readers have the diligence, the sticktoitiveness, to actually stay with the program that they encounter in a book or.

The kind of program that you're describing to stay with that over an extended time when they're pretty much operating solo, just with the company of the book, if you will. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: That is a tough one. And one of the things that I recommend in my book, in the very early chapters, this is my first book, are You Ready to Succeed?

Is get Together a group of like-minded people, meet regularly and do the exercises together. Compare notes and support each other. Now, I'm aware that there are many such groups, both within companies and outside in many different countries. And many of the members of these groups have reported that they have achieved steady and considerable progress.

So that is the way I recommend. There are a number of individuals who have emailed me saying that their lives were changed as a result of reading my book and doing the exercises. I have no idea whether or not this is typical or unusual. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Professor Rao how would you respond to the argument that if we're really concerned with employee happiness, we should be?

Focused on improving employees welfare on the job, meaning better working conditions or more paid family leave those kinds of issues, rather than getting employees to be happier with their sometimes meager allots. Is that an unfair criticism? 

SRIKUMAR RAO: No, in fact, that's exactly the way it should be. My take is ultimately you are responsible for your own happiness, so stop looking at employers to make you happy, but take charge of it yourself. Somewhere along the line, as you start taking charge of it, you may decide, okay, I'm taking charge of it. And one of the ways in which I'm taking charge of it is to decide this particular employer is terrible and I'm gonna go find me another employer who has a more enlightened view.

And that's fine. What I would like to see is I would like to see companies have a focus on different measures right now, and our business schools are part of the problem here. We are fixated primarily on financial metrics maximization of shareholder value on meetings, earnings targets, revenue targets and things of that nature.

And those are not something that you get up early in the morning saying, I'm going to go to work so I can help. My great big company meet its earnings targets or revenue targets. So we do have to come up with a mechanism whereby and this is what I advocate the sole function of a business is to make sure that everybody who comes into contact with that business.

Reaches his or her highest potential, and this includes employees, it includes customers, it includes vendors, it includes shareholders, and it includes society at large. That is the arena in which the debate should be taking place, and we're not there yet by a long chalk. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: I'd like to shift gears to another theme in your book that I found very interesting, ed, where and you, where you argue that being invested in outcomes in the business world and elsewhere can cause suffering and be counterproductive, and that instead you should be invested in the process.

So correct dichotomy between outcome and process. Can you say a little more about that idea? 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Certainly. Can you think of a situation in your life, Michael, where you wanted to achieve a goal and you very clearly set out, this is where I want to be and these are the kinds of things that I'm going to do to get to my goal, but for reasons totally outside your control, it didn't happen.

I. Sure. Okay. Lots of that. If you examine your life, you'll find that like most people you set yourself goals. You work to reach the goals. Some of the time you do reach your goals. Much of the time you do not reach your goals, and at least some of the time, you reach a goal, which is the exact opposite of the one you wanted.

Is that correct? Yeah. So if you set your, and most of us function on the basis, this is the goal. I reached it, I succeeded. Life is a blast, or I didn't reach it. I failed. Life sucks. And since the outcome is outside your control, by definition, if that's how you live your life, a lot of the time you're gonna be frustrated, depressed down and generally in a not very pleasant place.

And what I'm advocating is that you concentrate on goals. A goal is an outcome by the way. You concentrate on the outcome only to the extent that it gives you direction. And once it's given you direction, then you pour all of your emotional energy into the process. What do you have to do to achieve the goal?

And when you do that, two things happen. One, the task itself blesses you. It becomes a lot more enjoyable because one of the things that happens when you focus on the outcomes is that you miss the journey. And when you focus on the process, you do in fact enjoy the journey and the journey is the only thing you have.

And secondly, when you are genuinely unconcerned about whether or not you will reach the outcome, the probability that you will reach that outcome actually increases.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: So staying with this point, let me give you a hypothetical and see how you would address it in the context of this perspective.

What if you're coaching, say a sales executive who has been missing his sales targets and his CEO is telling him that he needs to meet the targets in the next six months or changes will have to be made, including that he might be replaced. It's not an uncommon scenario. Can you still tell that sales executive that he should be invested in process and not outcome. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Absolutely. In fact let me go even further. One of the persons who took my program who was a senior executive for a Fortune 20 multinational, and he was responsible for sales who were a big chunk of the world, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Asia, Australia.

In fact, much of the sales outside of North America. And he said, Professor Rao, it's all very well to speak about the outcome doesn't matter, but I have numbers to meet and I'm not gonna make it this quarter. And if I were to wave my hands and say the outcome doesn't matter, my boss would not be very impressed.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Yes. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Which is a variation of what you just told me, correct? 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Correct, correct. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: And what I told him is exactly what I'm telling you. Look. You had to meet numbers and you tried your level best to meet those numbers, and despite your level best efforts this year, you're not gonna make it. Is that correct?

And they said yes. Okay. I'm not telling you to get up on your soapbox, wave your hands and say, Hey guys, we are not gonna meet the numbers. But guess what? It doesn't matter because the outcome doesn't matter. That is not a career enhancing strategy. This is something for you to know internally. So you can do what you normally would've done, which is going into an emotional downturn.

Beat yourself up, scream at your sales team, and, do all of the dysfunctional things that we normally do. Or you can simply accept that, okay, we are not gonna meet my meet the numbers. And as a result of that stuff is going to happen. Up to and including your involuntary severance from your position could happen.

So if that happens and you do get fired, you deal with it when it comes. But in the meantime, simply say this is a new starting point and see where you wanna go from here. And I said, sure, that makes sense. So he sat down with his team and came up with a proposal. Then he went to his boss and said, Hey, boss, we're not gonna meet our numbers.

Don't know what the shortfall is going to be, but likely to be of this order of magnitude. And here's what I propose to do about it. And he presented his proposal and that had some cost containment measures, some revenue enhancement measures and some structural changes to let's do this and see what happens.

And those were unusual business conditions. So his boss looked at it and said, fine, go do it. And what could have been a major derailment became a minor bump in the road. So that's always the way to go. Can I give you another example? Sure. Okay. There was another person who went through my program, and this was the CEO of a major firm.

And he, his team would put in for bids. And every time they put in for bids, the focus would always be on, we gotta win this bid. We've got to crush the competition. And shortly after taking my program, he said, yes, that is wonderful. We do wanna win the bid, and we do wanna crush the competition. But, let's forget about crushing the competition.

Let's think about what are the steps that we have to take to actually make sure that we have we do the best job possible to win. And they lost that bid. But he said the funny thing was, whereas normally this would've left his team depressed for several days. This time they got over it in an afternoon, and the next time that's a bigger bid came along.

They actually won. And by focusing on the process, rather than on crushing the competition or winning, they actually did better work and started winning more frequently. Yeah. So this is something which is tremendous implications for business if you really follow through the changes that are dictated in where you put your emotional energy and your efforts.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Professor Rao, you've taught a number of top business schools in the country and in fact, the world. Correct. And the stereotype of MBA students at. These schools is is often of disciples of Gordon Gecko. You may remember that movie. Yes. Wall Street. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: I very clearly remember Gordon Gecko.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: And it's greed is good, pursue wealth and luxury and the like. And that's of course very different from what you have been teaching. Correct. I'd like to ask how your teachings are being received by MBA students and can you tell whether the teachings are actually having an effect? Effect on students' attitudes and behavior.

SRIKUMAR RAO: I can certainly comment on the students who have taken my program, which is that they, many of them report that their lives have been fundamentally changed and you really shouldn't take my word for it. All you gotta do is go on my website, read the testimonials, and you can make up your own mind.

And I can easily get hundreds more like that. With regard to the broader question of how does it fit into the ethos of business schools, much of what I talk much of what I teach is contrarian. In other words, it does go against the ethos of business school. So there is creative tension, let's say.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: But you find that despite that it does, the message does seem to be getting through. Oh, the students 

SRIKUMAR RAO: are absolutely ready to receive it. In fact, a number of them are seeking it, which is why my course is so widely popular and it's been among the highest rated and most popular courses at most of the business schools that I have taught at.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Now can I ask if you've ever had a job yourself that you really disliked or hated? And if so, what did you do about it? Did you use any of the techniques that you recommend? 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Absolutely. In fact that's easy to, most of the jobs I had, I varied between heartily. Hating and mildly disliking.

Oh my. There was a time of my life when I thought the world was divided into two classes of people, those who passionately hated the jobs and those who disliked the job. And I spent many decades in it. And my creating this course was actually my working on myself because I wanted to do something that made me come alive.

And that's why I created that course. And by putting my energy into that, I've now come to the stage where it has taken over my life. And now when I get up in the morning, I honestly don't know whether I'm working or playing. The distinction has completely disappeared, 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: but, and do you think that would be true even if you were doing the type of work you were doing before?

'cause obviously you've shifted in, in your work activity. That's 

SRIKUMAR RAO: the point that I want to leave with your listeners, Michael. Most of the time we think, I don't like where I am. And the way we try to fix it is by making changes outside. I've gotta go out and get a new job. I've gotta find a boss who trusts me.

I've gotta find colleagues. I respect things like that. And we spend all our activity and energy on trying to make changes on the outside. Now, I'm not saying that you don't have to make changes outside, but I am saying that it's better to start working on the stuff that's between your ears and when you start making changes there, much of the time the outside world rearranges itself and there's much less effort out, external effort that you have to make than you thought you had to make.

It's really a very profound truth, and I do want your listeners to understand that you can make changes outside. More easily, more effectively if you start making changes on the inside. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: And that's in part letting go of those models that are just not helpful, that are causing suffering. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: That's part of it.

And the other part of it is recognizing that we are constantly trying to rearrange the universe to suit. Our views of the way things should be, and I think most of your readers will have recognized by this point that the universe doesn't pay a whole lot of attention to your desires and the way you want things to be in a battle between you and the universe.

Always better the universe. 

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Fair enough. Professor Rao, thank you very much for being with us. It's been a pleasure talking to you. 

SRIKUMAR RAO: Thank you very much, Michael. It's been my pleasure talking to you, and I can't tell you how much I enjoy the Greater Good magazine and the organization you're a part of. So if this has been of help in any way to your readers, then I am delighted.

MICHAEL BERGEISEN: Terrific. Thank you again, Professor Rao. We really appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

The Greater Good Podcast is a production of the Greater Good Science Center at the University of California Berkeley. Jason Marsh is the producer of the Greater Good Podcast. Alton Doe and Bernie Wong are interns. Special thanks to the University's graduate School of Journalism and Milt Wallace for production assistance.

You can listen to more Greater Good Podcasts and find articles, videos, and other material from Greater Good Magazine at www.greatergoodscience.org. I'm Michael Bergeisen.