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Can anyone truly succeed alone? We explore how role models, mentors, and strong social support make upward mobility far more possible than grit alone.
Summary: What role do the people around us play in shaping our success? Brothers Danny and Gilbert Murillo share how education, mentorship, and their evolving relationship helped them overcome incarceration and systemic barriers to build lives of purpose. Then, Social Mobility Lab founder Bob McKinnon explains why success is never a solo journey and how recognizing our own "dream team" can expand what's possible for ourselves and others.
How To Do This Practice:
- Reflect on your journey: Think about where you are today and the moments that shaped your path. Consider both the opportunities you had and the challenges you overcame.
- Identify your dream team: Write down the people who have encouraged, protected, guided, or inspired you throughout your life. They might be family members, teachers, friends, mentors, coaches, or colleagues.
- Recognize their impact: For each person, note one way they helped you grow or see new possibilities. Notice how your achievements are connected not only to your own efforts, but also to the support you received.
- Look ahead with intention: Ask yourself what kind of support you need right now. Is there someone you could learn from, ask for advice, or build a stronger relationship with as you work toward your next goal?
- Move forward with self-compassion: As you pursue your goals, remember that success and setbacks are never yours alone. Focus on what you can control, ask for help when you need it, and offer yourself the same grace you'd extend to someone you care about.
DANNY MURILLO is the co-founder of Underground Scholars, a program that creates pathways to higher education for incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and system-impacted people.
Learn more about Danny here: https://undergroundscholars.berkeley.edu/members
GILBERT MURILLO is a policy advocate and researcher who draws on his own experience with incarceration to reform California's criminal justice system.
Learn more about Gilbert here: https://capolicylab.org/staff/gilbert-murillo/
BOB MCKINNON is an author, teacher, and Director of the Social Mobility Lab at the Colin Powell School for Civic and Global Leadership at The City College of New York
Learn more about Bob here: https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/profile/bob_mckinnon
Related Science of Happiness episodes:
Why Compassion Requires Vulnerability: https://tinyurl.com/mrxsad33
When It's Hard To Connect, Try Being Curious: https://tinyurl.com/mr32nwtv
An Awe Walk Through History and Possibility: https://tinyurl.com/mr3arrbc
Related Happiness Break episodes:
A Science-Backed Path to Self-Forgiveness: https://tinyurl.com/2js59anm
A Meditation on Original Love and Interconnectedness: https://tinyurl.com/mu2uzs2c
Our Deep Interconnectedness: https://tinyurl.com/y2epxyxn
Message us or leave a comment on Instagram @scienceofhappinesspod. E-mail us at happinesspod@berkeley.edu or use the hashtag #happinesspod.
Help us share The Science of Happiness! Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or share this link with someone who might like the show: https://tinyurl.com/2p9h5aap
Transcription:
SHUKA KALANTARI: Welcome to The Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalantari. Today, we're talking about the people who change the way we see ourselves and our future, the people who encourage us, inspire us, and help us see what's possible. Danny and Gilbert Murillo's story brings that idea to life. Danny is the co-founder of Underground Scholars, a program that creates pathways to higher education for incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and system-impacted people.
DANNY MURILLO: The university is a treasure chest, but you won't know how to find the treasures if you don't have a map.
SHUKA KALANTARI: For more than a decade, he's helped people pursue new possibilities and move forward when public policy has left them behind.
DANNY MURILLO: The only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have, and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
SHUKA KALANTARI: His brother, Gilbert Murillo, is a policy advocate and researcher who draws on his own experience with incarceration to reform California's criminal justice system.
GILBERT MURILLO: Going through this higher education, I fell in love with data analytics, where, like, how can we use quantitative data to challenge certain policies that promote White supremacy or promote displacement? And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not got here.
SHUKA KALANTARI: We also hear from Bob McKinnon, the founder of the Social Mobility Lab, about how role models can also expand our definition of success from something we earn on our own to something that's made possible through connection.
BOB MCKINNON: In certain cultures, and certainly ours, there's this idea that you don't need anyone, that you can pull yourself up from your bootstraps, which is physically impossible if you know what a bootstrap is.
SHUKA KALANTARI: We'll explore all of that and more coming up.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalantari. Today on our show, we're talking about the importance and impact of role models. Research shows that when young people have someone to look up to, they're more engaged in school, they feel happier and more confident, and make safer choices. But role models aren't just for kids. They matter throughout our lives, especially when we're navigating barriers that can make the path forward harder to see. Studies reveal that when someone who shares your story reaches their goals, it changes what feels within reach, strengthening our sense of agency. That's what Danny Murillo did for his little brother, Gilbert. Here's their conversation with our host, Dacher Keltner.
DACHER KELTNER: Thanks for taking time out of your busy days to be here.
DANNY MURILLO: Thank you very much for the invitation. Appreciate it.
GILBERT MURILLO: Likewise. I really appreciate being here.
DACHER KELTNER: I'd love to start with you, Danny, and just tell us about Underground Scholars. I remember reading about it in that New Yorker article 2016, and it just blew me off the map. What was your journey there?
DANNY MURILLO: My educational journey started while in prison. When I got to Berkeley, we started as a reading group, and out of that grew the aspirations of wanting to create a space for formerly incarcerated students. The first thing that we created was a student organization, and that was, like, furthest from the thing that we thought about ever creating. Like, we wanted to create a research center, a public service center, a policy center, and, like, never thought about a student org until we heard that there was $135,000 on the table. We applied, we got it, and we opened up space at Stiles Hall, and we've been there ever since, right? 2014.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
DANNY MURILLO: But we've grown since then.
DACHER KELTNER: So Gilbert, man, you're studying at the Goldman School of Public Policy. What are you interested in?
GILBERT MURILLO: I fell in love with, like, a lot of data analytics, and I realized that a lot of people of color, we don't know so much about quantitative data. I just presented an 80-page report to my client, the California Election Office. When I presented that report, my client was like, "I like this report. I could get you a job at the Sacramento State Capitol."
DACHER KETLNER: Congratulations.
GILBERT MURILLO: Yes. Thank you. And he told me, "Look, I don't wanna put a disco ball right in front of you, but- ... you do have choices, and you should take pride of that report that you have made." But luckily, I spoke with the director of Underground Scholar. Obviously, she gave me, like, clarity, like, "Maybe you should do the Sacramento."
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
GILBERT MURILLO: Those two years and build those connections, build up the political campaign, then go back to your neighborhood and run for the district representative. Then you start moving forward from there. And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not got here.
DACHER KELTNER: Tell us what you guys were like as kids. Like, what was your relationship like growing up?
DANNY MURILLO: We didn't have a relationship, unfortunately. Gilbert was born April 21st, 1994, and I got incarcerated the last couple of weeks of March of 1996, and I went in for 15 years. I was supposed to serve 12. I ended up serving about 13 years and 10 months. So when I came home, Gilbert was about 16 years old. At some point, though, I started communicating with him. I remember I, always sending him and my nephews Spider-Man drawings. I was placed in solitary confinement in 2003 for the remainder of my sentence, and it was in solitary confinement where you could hear the desperation in my mom's letters. There was a point where she started writing to me and like, "Yo, I'm concerned about your little brother. He's going in the wrong direction." And then I started noticing it, 'cause some of the letters just changed. I remember first, the letters were like, "Oh, I'm in boxing club. I'm learning how to rap. I'm writing raps." And that excited me, you know? And then, you know, next thing you know, he was like, "Oh, you know, I'm out here in the streets now, you know, and I can't wait till you get out. We're gonna take control." And I'm like, "Nah, that's not what I wanna do," you know?
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. You're inside in prison. Pelican Bay, right? Yeah. How are you communicating in your letters? What are you trying to say to Gilbert about, like, think about other things, or what'd you say?
DANNY MURILLO: It was hard, though, because I don't really know what to say, right? And so for me, it was more about preparing for when I came home. The only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have, and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
DACHER KELTNER: Gilbert, what was it like to get the letter when you're a young guy and you're heading towards perhaps a little trouble and you get your letters, the letters from Danny from prison? What were those like for you to, to read?
GILBERT MURILLO: I think one of the letters that stood out to me the most was, like, that one sentence. It was, "Fly high as a brown eagle soaring over the pyramid."
DACHER KELTNER: How'd that speak to you? What'd it say to you?
GILBERT MURILLO: Oh, damn. It was independent, freedom, liberty, not having no constraints in society. But mainly reclaiming your identity.
DACHER KELTNER: Right on. I wanted to ask you, Danny, what was that like for you to, like, figure out how to be a role model for your brothers?
DANNY MURILLO: It was a learning process, right, and a very hard one. My mom also put that pressure on me when I came home, that my role wasn't just the role of a big brother, but also a father figure. We never really had a father figure-like relationship with our father, you know what I mean? And so how do I show up, right?
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
DANNY MURILLO: If it wasn't for education, I don't know what I would have done, and I think for me, being able to use education as a way to be a role model for my little brother. Even before his arrest, I had brought him up here to Berkeley, and he would go back to LA, get in trouble, and then come back.
DACHER KELTNER: And at the time, you were a student at Berkeley?
DANNY MURILLO: Yes.
DACHER KELTNER: Wow. Gilbert, I wanna ask you, you talked about being in a gang database, and one of the things I've learned from David Muhammad, who runs the National Institute of Criminal Justice Research, is our culture has the wrong ideas about young people of color. They're not the ones committing most of the crime, and we know all about biases and criminal treatment and so forth and who they stop in cars and who they shake down and the sentences that people, young men of color get. It's a, an illusion in some sense. What was it like for you–brothers in Pelican Bay, and you're feeling the pull of this life, and then you're told you're in this database? As a young human being, what went through your mind?
GILBERT MURILLO: The way how I ended up in that way was really, one is my house ended up getting raided because of my nephew. He landed on probation early, and there was a point where I guess there was a violation. When they raided the house, they ended up finding narcotics, but I ended up taking the rap for the narcotics. But the thing was that there were letters there from my brother and letters from other individuals as well that I kept contact, and they're like, "Oh," like, "you're related with so and so. We have to put you on the gang database." So that's where kinda, like, how does public policy mold your identity? I was already prescribed with these identities already, so eventually, that's how that gang database kinda, like, put that gasoline to get jumped into the neighborhood, got validated. And now looking back, it's like anybody could get, be on a gang database.
DACHER KELTNER: One of the things we know from research on how our lives develop and the stories of our lives is like turning points really matter, you know, and we, we all make mistakes. Tell me about the turning point that got you to Berkeley and the work that you do right now.
GILBERT MURILLO: I guess the first relevant turning point would be when I got arrested. They were trying to charge me for attempted homicide. However, a month later, they ended reducing a loaded-- receiving stolen property of a loaded firearm. However, during that time period, our father passed away from leukemia cancer.
DACHER KELTNER: I'm sorry.
GILBERT MURILLO: So when that happened, like, ended getting bailed out, my mother like, "I bailed you out. The only thing I could do for you now, either move with your brother. Don't stay here." So I ended up moving with Danny to Berkeley, but during that time period too, like even when I was incarcerated, he wrote me letters like stipend, financial aid. I never knew that you could get money at the college, like financial aid and demystifying that. But I guess like the main turning point would be for me is the day when I got accepted to UC Santa Barbara is the same day that two of my homies, one passed away and the other one lived. So when that happened, it was a lot of emotion and anger and vengeance, and also it was a lot of like emotions of like self-hatred of like I could've done better for them.
DACHER KELTNER: Hmm.
GILBERT MURILLO: But yeah, so there was a threshold point where it's like, do I wanna engage in this action or should I just continue my higher education? I had to go through therapy, and I'm still going through therapy, but eventually that was a turning point where, you know what? I need to continue this higher education. What are the opportunities I could provide for this neighborhood that we don't have to be further more devs?
DACHER KELTNERL I'd love to hear, Gilbert, like your big brother's bringing you up to Berkeley and, you know, you're being drawn to LA, like what are you seeing in Danny that taught you about character and who you could be and how to make decisions in life?
GILBERT MURILLO: One thing I did learn is about his character attribution is noble, as being very noble. You don't see that a lot now, especially like in this society of like under capitalism, we really don't see a lot of people being very noble-
DACHER KELTNER: - At all
GILBERT MURILLO: ... honest, very self-reflective.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
GILBERT MURILLO: And one of the things, too, is being patient, and that's like one of the things that a lot of people could take for granted, but it also, too, it took me some time to recognize his attributes and what are his limitations, but even I had to be honest with myself that he's doing a lot of work for me, and I need to take that, and I need to be intentional, like how do I do this internal work for my own self? It's still a lot of growth that I still need to do.
DACHER KELTNER: We all do.
GILBERT MURILLO: And, yeah, yeah, and especially in these times, but I look forward to it and I always appreciate people that give me like closure and feedback, critical feedback, and that is one of the things that is for growth, you know, for the next chapter.
DACHER KELTNER: We study in my lab something called moral beauty, which is other people's courage and character inspires us. And I have a brother who passed away young, but he taught me... I was a grouchy kid and greedy and loved to beat people in Monopoly. I was kind of a, not somebody I'm proud of, and my younger brother taught me how to be kind and fight for people who are bullied and stuff. What have you guys learned from each other as brothers?
DANNY MURILLO: Hmm. I think we are at a point now where we are developing a healthier relationship.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
DANNY MURILLO: It took a while.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah, as it always does.
DANNY MURILLO: It took a while to get to a point where we can have honest and courageous conversations with each other, and for me, that's, you know, a place where I'm excited where we're at now-
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah
DANNY MURILLO: - in our life. And we've been participating in some of the Underground Scholars men's healing circles. Our relationship has grown, right, in terms of being a lot more intimate with each other, in terms of the things that we tell each other.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
DANNY MURILLO: We weren't doing that probably like three years ago.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. Well, it's hard for siblings to begin with-
DANNY MURILLO: Yeah
DACHER KELTNER: And you guys had a lot of obstacles in your way. Man, that's so good to hear. How about you, Gilbert? What would you say about what you've learned from this big brother over here?
GILBERT MURILLO: I really do put him in the pedestal where like to Malcolm X and Che Guevara, because Danny, what he's doing is like, it reminds me how Che Guevara tried to create this transnational continental solidarity.
DACHER KELTNER: Right on.
GILBERT MURILLO: It motivates me as far as to kick it up a notch.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
GILBERT MURILLO: Like how do I give back to the community now? So it has become as like, I don't wanna say motivational flame or spark, but definitely it is the flaming passion that makes it continue.
DACHER KELTNER: Well, Danny and Gilbert, it is a privilege to have you on the show. I've found so much inspiration from your work, Danny, over the years. Uh-
DANNY MURILLO: Thank you very much.
GILBERT MURILLO: Thank you.
SHUKA KALANTARI: How do our beliefs about social class, opportunity, and success shape the stories we tell about ourselves and others?
BOB MCKINNON: Trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical, and when we do so, we're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others, and it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Dacher's conversation with Bob McKinnon, the director of the Social Mobility Lab in New York, up next.
SHUKA KALANTARI: Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalantari. We've been talking with Danny and Gilbert Murillo about their relationship as brothers and the power of role modeling. It was a potent conversation where we heard about how Gilbert reclaimed his identity and purpose when public policy attempted to mold the direction of his life. Joining us next is Bob McKinnon, author, teacher, and director of the Social Mobility Lab. Earlier this year, we joined Bob on a walk through Harlem to explore how awe-inspiring places and historical figures can influence our sense of belonging, and even our belief that change and upward mobility are possible. Today, we talk about the crucial need for interdependence and how all of us need a dream team. Here's Dacher and Bob's conversation.
DACHER KELTNER: Bob, thanks for joining us. It's great to be talking to you again.
BOB MCKINNON: Oh, my pleasure.
DACHER KELTNER: When you think about role models and the other forces that you study, what's your big message about moving up in life?
BOB MCKINNON: So trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical, and when we do so, it does a couple of things. We're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others, and it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about and who maybe we don't even know. And so I think that there is this built-in idea of interdependence that is, you know, just not quite lifted up the way it needs to be.
DACHER KELTNER: One of the ideas that you champion, and I really like it a lot, is the dream team, just the, this family or set of individuals who's guiding you in your life. We know this literature on positive childhood experiences that as you navigate tough conditions in life and make your way into adulthood. Tell us about your own life. Who was your dream team, and then what are the lessons more generally for people to think about the dream team in their lives?
BOB MCKINNON: Yeah. Years ago, I was in a room with Jack Shonkoff at the Child Mind Institute at Harvard, and Irwin Redlener, who started the Children's Health Fund, and I, I've constantly been asking him the question, like, "How did I end up here, and how do people escape poverty?" And they were both answered the question very quickly. They were like, "Well, one of the things that's so important is to have an adult that serves as a buffer." That even in all of the challenges that I had faced, or many others as well, there's someone that helps protect you and make sense of that madness, and my mother did that, my brother certainly did that. My sister was a partner in crime and, again, sort of protected me from a lot of the other stuff.
DACHER KELTNER: One of the things that I really admire about your work, Bob, is you really take head-on the American, even capitalist ideology of success. And there's a paradox here, which is that as you rise, often up the class ladder, and you end up succeeding well, you tend to explain your successes in terms of individual qualities. How do you challenge that?
BOB MCKINNON: One of the ways in which that's described is this notion of fundamental attribution error, where we do just naturally, and in some ways understandably, attribute a lot of our success to our own agency. In a world that sometimes is full of injustice, it helps us sort of make sense of that world. And so I think that the way to have conversations about this is, you used the word challenge, and I can appreciate that's something we should do, but I think that when we have conversations where we ask people questions about their own lives and have them come to the understanding on their own, when we ask them about their mentors and their, you know, role models and the people that helped them, I think that it allows for the defensiveness to fall a little bit.
DACHER KELTNER: Can you walk us through just some three to five simple steps that you would encourage people to think about to enrich this narrative of their lives?
BOB MCKINNON: I think understanding how you ended up where you are by asking questions about your own life, the things that have contributed to that, I think that is really helpful for you to appreciate there are some things that are beyond your control and to make peace with it. And that's a critical first step. The second is like, you know, understanding, well, how do I really move up in life? Understanding that you do have agency, that you can ask for help, that you should invest in capital, both social and financial, and get those things in place. And I think that there is an ability for us every step of the way to try to understand and make sense of our journey, where we're going, what's important to us, to invest our time in those things that are important, and to all along the way to be kind to ourselves in the process. To understand there's things we can control and there's things that we can't control, and to, you know, go through our life with grace towards ourselves and towards others. And to understand that just like success is not something that is largely achieved on our own, the same goes for failure.
DACHER KELTNER: I wanna thank you, Bob, for your work at the Social Mobility Lab. I'm very grateful you're doing the work that you're doing.
BOB MCKINNON: Thanks. It's always a pleasure talking and, you know, appreciate the work that you're doing and asking the questions that we ask. And these are the kind of conversations that I hope inform people's journeys and add the kinds of things into the world that make the world a better place to walk through.
SHUKA KALANTARI: We're exploring another way our perspectives shape our experience, the practice of paying attention to the moments that bring us joy.
ROSS GAY: Which is really just a noticing practice, you know, like noticing stuff, paying attention to stuff. What we put our attention on obviously grows. What we study grows.
SHUKA KALANTARI: How to experience more joy, next time on The Science of Happiness. Thanks for listening to The Science of Happiness. Our associate producers are Emily Brower and Anna Zou. Our producer is Truc Nguyen. Our sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of Accompany Studios. Our host is Dacher Keltner. I'm your executive producer, Shuka Kalantari. Have a joyful day.
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