PODCASTThe Science of Happiness

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Sharing a new show from my friends at Higher Ground, hosted by Michelle Obama, called IMO. You know on Science of Happiness, we have conversations filled with compassion and empathy, and share research-backed strategies for a more fulfilled life. Similarly on IMO, Michelle and her big brother Craig Robinson bring candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships and the world around us. Each week, they’re joined by a guest to tackle real questions from real folks just like you offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs. Topics range from dating and relationships, to family and faith. Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first crushes and fraught college years, to landing at the White House, to losing their mom. For six decades they’ve been each others’ most trusted counsel—and now, they want to be that counsel for you. In this episode, they’re joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations in female friendships.

You can find more episodes of IMO at https://lnk.to/imomichellecrai...

Transcription:

MICHELLE OBAMA: ‘Cause the crisis would require an emergency session. 

ISSA RAE: Oh my God. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Like somebody's on a train. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah. Flying.

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know? Like there's, there's movement. And you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah and it’s like we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis. 

ISSA RAE: My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is, I took off work. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: That is a script. That is something you could write on television.

ISSA RAE: It’s true though because that’s like, it means planning and doing a text like, you know, she's not gonna be good. Like, she's, she doesn't need this right now. You know? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Right, right. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: You know what's so horrible about that is guys would be like, damn. That's it.

ISSA RAE: Yeah.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Sorry.

ISSA RAE: Send the dog emoji. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Or dude, I didn't know you had a dog. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah, what? When’d you get a dog?

CRAIG ROBINSON: Okay. We are, we are bad.

–

CRAIG ROBINSON: Hey.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well hi again, you, it's you again. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: How are you?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh, I like your, is that pink? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: It's, uh, my wife called it Coral, but it could be pink.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, it is coral and it's a little pleated. What this is, this is breaking out of the, you know

CRAIG ROBINSON: Watch out.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Basketball thing. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Watch out now.

MICHELLE OBAMA: In that blue collar. Okay, I see you, Craig Robinson. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I am uh, I'm thrilled that you like my clothes. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. Nice.

CRAIG ROBINSON:  See you guys. It's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know, you don't even need much closet space, but you know, you're stepping out. You're stepping out. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Thank you. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: What's new and exciting? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't -

MICHELLE OBAMA: I might.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Since you don't drive.

MICHELLE OBAMA: I might. No, no. I'm starting to drive. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Really? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. I can drive. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: How's that? How's the secret service letting you drive? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well, it's a secret. You, you could take me for a spin.

CRAIG ROBINSON: They'll let me take you for a spin?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes. 

MICHELLE OBAMA:And the boys wanted me to pick them up from school, and we did. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: And you tooled up in a motor cade…

MICHELLE OBAMA: In a motor cade…

CRAIG ROBINSON: …To their school…

MICHELLE OBAMA: …In the pickup line. They were just like Meesh! I was like, yeah, yeah. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Four cars deep in the pickup line, four SUVs deep. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: That was so much fun. I'm sure their friends were like, what the heck? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yo, and then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like Meesh!

MICHELLE OBAMA: I'm like, like, get in and don't touch the guns. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I do remember that.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh my goodness. But um, so we're talking about friendship today. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yeah. And, and people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yep. 'Cause it couldn't happen before then. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Nope, it could not happen before then. But, um, my, my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time. Although, as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: They did. Right. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Um, and two of my girls from grammar school, the Gores.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Pam and Nikki, um, and they had a, a little sister um - 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Gina.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Gina, but, uh, they came to the funeral. And it was funny, we got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't, I, I hadn't missed a minute with them. Um, but so we vowed to keep, to get, to keep in touch, but outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost, at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life. So what I found is like one of, uh, you know, my best friend and roommate who, you know Angela, from Princeton. She was my roommate. She's my girl. Always talked to her. From law school. My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day. Um, she's in DC you know, and then there’s my mom friends, ‘cause right as I got married, but then even before then, that was Pam. She was more my professional friend. Uh, when I was, when, when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms and, you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House -

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes?

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know, one of the things we were like, no new friends, that's it. And I was like, ah, you know -

CRAIG ROBINSON: I did say that. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, you were kind of joking, but it was important for me, the normalcy of my life to be able to, to, or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I, I, I, I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Right, right, and, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yes. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: And falling out of friendship with good friends. And, um, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, see guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional, right? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: What do you mean by that? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: What, well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group. And your personality and your character. Most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event. You've got four tickets to a game. Your significant other doesn't want to go, so you all right, I'm gonna take three friends. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: What you just make a friend? It's like, okay, let's be friends. Come to the game with me. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: But guys do that. Guys would.

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's why y'all are broken.

CRAIG ROBINSON: We are not broken but, but we, we, we don't go as deep. So if something happens, we're not as hurt. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Is that, are you, does that meant y'all scared? Is that what goes on all the time? Y'all scared? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, nobody said I was scared. It's just -

MICHELLE OBAMA: I don't want my feelings hurt, so I don't, I can't know you.

CRAIG ROBINSON: It's a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other um, and, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year or I could talk to every week, and the relationship is mostly the same. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's 'cause y'all don't talk about nothing. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's, it's, it's hard to go deep. You, you know, the time we go deep is when it's too late .

MICHELLE OBAMA: Deathbed. It's like, woo. Bubba, I wish I asked him about his family. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: We’re we're getting a divorce. It's already done.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh yeah. And then there's some tragedy. It's, why didn't you say anything?

CRAIG ROBINSON: I didn't say anything. 'cause I didn't wanna burden you and I, I was gonna thug through it myself.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Mm-hmm. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Um, but today's show we're gonna talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: With close friends. And… 

MICHELLE OBAMA: We have company. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: We do have company, and I can't tell you how excited I am for this company because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom-comish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch this Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it, it's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And, and, and she said, you're, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back. Because she was like on episode four. I was, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one and then I watched the third and the fourth, 'cause I was only gonna watch the first two and I just fell in love with this actress. Who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a, and a community folk. Kind of like y'all. Just in the community doing stuff for black folks giving it back, and just so supremely talented. Let's bring on ISSA RAE.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Issa. Watch him. Watch him. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: See, I'm just meeting her for the first time. So happy to have you here. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Watch him. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: She will be okay.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well, welcome to the table. 

ISSA RAE: Thank you so much. I was just nodding and mm-hmming back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in y'all. Seriously. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well, what's been going on? How are you? 

ISSA RAE: Oh, so much. I'm doing really well. I'm, I'm out here still, just writing. You mentioned a restaurant. That is called Somerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

CRAIG ROBINSON: What made you say, all right, I wanna open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

ISSA RAE: You know, it's, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, um, I'd be a bartender or waitress. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Really? 

ISSA RAE: Yes. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Okay. Well, there you go. 

ISSA RAE: I like, I like, I like the food environment. I love serving, I love hosting and there is a degree of that and I love eating out and so, since I was young, I would even, play, like doing play dates with my brother and my little brother. Our play dates would be restaurant. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Restaurant. Mm-hmm.

ISSA RAE: Yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Sounds familiar. 

ISSA RAE: And then also I, I remember my best friend and I have the same birthday and it was like the 30 something birthday. 

MICHELLE OBAMA:You're Capricorn too. 

ISSA RAE: I'm a Capricorn. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Like me 17. 

ISSA RAE: Yes. You already know 12th over here. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's why we bossy.

ISSA RAE: Yeah, I know. I know. I don't like to admit it, I don't wanna give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out, we always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner and we were just like, uh, let's go. Like we trying to go out. And in your thirties, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard. We went to so many different spots and it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just, and it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from LA. We cannot find a spot that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story where I was like, I wanna, I want that in my neighborhood, man. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Nice doing it with your little baby boss self. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Were you gonna say something? Go ahead. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: I wanted to find out as we, we talk about friendships and we will eventually read a, a, a letter, um, from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships, but something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, you know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it, you know, have you become more cautious? Have you, uh, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently or felt like you needed to think about friendships differently given your, you know, your ascent and who you've become? 

ISSA RAE: I have been very lucky that I've had friends since high school who are, because I'm from LA and there is a sense of this feeling like my job, like I don't, I didn't, I didn't move here to become myself. I was already here and I grew up around this environment and a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is JoIssa Jo, that's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, it's separate, those are people who don't really know me. And the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. Um, but I've had, I've definitely had friendship breakups um, some, as a result of working together. As we both ascended, as a result of not being able to handle the, the change in position at the time. Um, like I have, I have a friend who I thought I was gonna be friends with forever, but she went through two major milestones, kind of traumatic milestones really young. She got married when we were in college, and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was, that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college. And that was, she was the first friend whose parent had passed away and I felt like I wasn't equipped to like truly be there for her uh, in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started like, um, rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously. Or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart and we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. 

ISSA RAE: Um, in, in that way.

CRAIG ROBINSON:  Right, right. 

ISSA RAE: But I haven't had any, like, you're famous, I'm using you type things. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, that, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. Uh, it's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So, Natalie, are you ready to read us the letter?

NATALIE: Let's do it. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: All right.

NATALIE: Hi Michelle and Craig,

My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early twenties, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless, like both sides naturally wanna spend time together, check in, show up for each other.

But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. When it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong.

I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still over time I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years.

Recently though, Kristen lost a close family member and when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over.

Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself, and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect, but now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love and I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself.

How do you maintain healthy friendships? If there is an imbalance in expectations, is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? 

Thanks for your thoughts, Eva. 

ISSA RAE: I took so many turns.

CRAIG ROBINSON: So can I just say before we dig into this. There would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't. It's not our thing. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated. So complicated because we are, we go there, we are, you know, we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't wanna generalize, but women more, right? We get it. So we are sociologists. I, I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just gonna throw a ball. You know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I wanna know why, how? Tell me more. What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more, and in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much. 

ISSA RAE: Absolutely. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last, but, but because of that, you, you don't end it without the hurt. You know? It is complicated. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah. There's a, a piece of you that you're giving so many of, I mean so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with anyone that I've as, as a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like, you mean a lot to me. And that I, that I see a future with you and, and automatically, if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I feel betrayed by you, that is devastating. And yeah. Even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend. To begin with, um, and then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of, of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship, but it still felt like she was… in any version of this, I don't know. I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman is the way that I read it. Um, and that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships and hurts is strong was when there, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right? Because you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that that's, you know, uh, uh, that's, that, that's always present. You know, someone in every relationship is given a little more, given a little less, you know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and, and flawed, and all of us are. That has never been a problem for me, like the complicated nature of my friends. When I felt most most betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table giving, sharing and you weren't. You were at the table. It's sort of like, like it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce of his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through there. That probably felt like a little emotional, uh, you know, I, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like you weren't, you, you weren't telling me. And you know, and maybe it's 'cause of what? You didn't trust me. You didn't trust yourself. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: See, she's still hot about it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: But I'm just using you as an example in the, in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important. You know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust and you know, when you and I let people in, when I let people in there, you're in. You know, and I, I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I wanna be at the table with my friends completely myself, but that means I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there, or maybe she wasn't. 

ISSA RAE: That's so complicated. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship. 

ISSA RAE & MICHELLE OBAMA: Why? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Really, it's like, what's your problem?

CRAIG ROBINSON: Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely gonna be where everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always outta balance? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. Yeah. I think I don't disagree with that. 

ISSA RAE: But there is a, if, if you are, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like tickets to the games. I'm always one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not, like, that's still, there's an like, I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, I, you're not gonna show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Right. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Or like, you are always at my house and I'm never at yours. I mean it, that, that, that's a problem. You know, if I look, and I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being, 'cause oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one. I have the resources. I've got the, you know, I, I have more of the special, oh, guess what we can do? There, there's a natural imbalance, but it's like. You. If you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner or whatever, even if it's pizza.

ISSA RAE: Or whatever the equivalent of, I know what the equivalent of your effort is. Even if it's just pizza. Like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me. This means a lot, you know? And I'm fine. I will meet you where you're at because I know that this is your love language. But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort. Or that you, you don't rank is high on their, on, on their list of friends. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

CRAIG ROBINSON: You know, I guess with me and my friends, because I like you, I don't want to generalize. As long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight, you use tickets. Tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game. That's equivalency to me.. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah I agree. That's equivalency to me, I think. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: But I, but what I, I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalance from the beginning. Your, to your point, Issa, my friends, and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're, we're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep and like you were saying, how I, you're, you're a, it's sociology. For women, it's not, it's carpentry for men, you know, it's just, it's shop, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, I didn't wanna say gym, but it's, uh, it, we, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep. 

ISSA RAE: To what extent? So like even if I'm not getting in your business, but like for the divorce of it, right?

MICHELLE OBAMA: We are, we're getting in this business.

CRAIG ROBINSON: For the divorce -

MICHELLE OBAMA: Two Capricorns, we in your business. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I told, like, I tell her everything. But the, what she left out, the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it. 

ISSA RAE: Oh, interesting. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep. 

ISSA RAE: You did go deep with it. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yeah

ISSA RAE: So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: This is happening.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Or did you, did you bring up, we're having problems and let's talk about, or did you wait until -

CRAIG ROBINSON: We, I, like I said at the outset, I waited until it was -

MICHELLE OBAMA: So y'all, you didn't go deep.

CRAIG ROBINSON: But, but no, see now see, there's no timing to it. I mean - 

MICHELLE OBAMA: But there is for -

CRAIG ROBINSON: So it was deep for me. It was deep for me. Irrespective of the time.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Just the mere fact that you told somebody the obvious and, and giving them, you told your friends that it happened.

CRAIG ROBINSON: That its happening.

MICHELLE OBAMA: That it's happening.

ISSA RAE: When you were going through it, right and it was hard. Who did you talk to? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I talked to two really good friends of mine, um, and we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading and we'd have cigars and margaritas, and it was three of us. We had one chair in the middle, so it was for whoever, and we called it the chair of angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the chair of angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the chair of angst for like seven months because I was going through this. And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want, if it, if I could somehow kicksave this thing I could tell 'em after the fact. You know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family. 

ISSA RAE: He's right about that. Is he right? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: It's sort of, sort of right. We would've been, but you know, you go, you do what your family needs at the time. You know, there's, there's, there's no way we, we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and. Now everything is over. That's how we found out. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: That's how they found out. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: So it was like what? How did you not - its the sharpness of it.

CRAIG ROBINSON: I'm not saying it's the, it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan.

MICHELLE OBAMA: But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused. Because it sounded like you were, you did to them, what you did to us. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deeper. We, we, we, it's not like a friendship where there's always something to dig into. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: But I find that with my friends, always, there's always, always going deep. There's always, there's always something to into, 'cause you talk about -

ISSA RAE & MICHELLE OBAMA: Everything.

ISSA RAE: There's just, there are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it there. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like, oh, this happened to me and this is how I was affected by it. And there's just, nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it, is just you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You are the safe space. Or, and I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Um, which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like, this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this, to Eva. And Eva was like, hit or miss. I'm not even sure yet. I don't even know if I like you girl, you're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's, that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we, are we good or not? And now someone, something happened. That's tragic and I, I think you're one of the last people I heard from, so maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think, I think this situation is worth, giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time. If she does have those, you know, and this is what women do. Like this would've happened to me in one friendship, and I would've gone to a set of friends to say, Hey, hey.

ISSA RAE: This is what happened. Am I messing up here? Am I, did I wrong? And the, the crew would be, they would dissect it. They would be in real time. You know, and I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know? Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, yeah. You are right. I wasn't, I wasn't fully in this, I was ambivalent and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here. Um, because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the, to, to her friend. 

ISSA RAE: I have to say that I'm also guilty 'cause part of this also triggered me in a way. Because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check-in everyday type of person. I'm a very much when I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends and I've been, I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me. It's not a natural instinct and so with this, I understand like Eva being like, this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I, I, I can't, I'm not gonna be the same type of giving friend that you are to me. But I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. Um, and so that is, that's, that would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, Hey, I just wanna make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay. And know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate, I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: That's a, that's a pronouncement there. 

ISSA RAE: It's, it's true, and it's like one of my biggest flaws. Okay 'cause I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you.

CRAIG ROBINSON:  Right. Right. And that's fair. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: But that's also part of friendship, right? Because you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that, and times when I've been that friend, and the hope is that people be like, girl, she must be going through something. You know? Or she's busy. Or, you know, um, uh, and that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself. Flaws and all. You know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not gonna be the one to call 'cause she just doesn't do that. You know, I'm not a great, you know, I, I don't, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more for the same. Like, I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And, and that was because eight years also, I mean, it was hard to reach me for, for eight years without a whole lot of goings on and in order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate. Over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume, I don't wanna bother you.

ISSA RAE: Yeah. Same. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know? Um, 'cause I'm not gonna bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, why didn't you, you didn't tell me? I didn't wanna bother you, so that means that I, I often have to bend over even more .

ISSA RAE: Completely 

MICHELLE OBAMA: To, to check in so people know that when things are tough do not not call me. Because I mean, I may not be able do anything. It's like, now I'm mad at you for that. But you were gonna say something before I cut you off. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, no. That was great. That I, I, I appreciate that. And, and I also appreciate, now you see, she would've been mad when she said she wouldn't, and she, oh, it wouldn't have blasted.

CRAIG ROBINSON: It would, you know.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't, you don't say that. 

ISSA RAE: Absolutely not. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, you don't. 

ISSA RAE: Can I ask you a question about the chair? Chair of angst? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes.

ISSA RAE: Did they, did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Was it an inquiry?

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yeah, it was. It was all of the above because sometimes the person who was in the chair of angst just needed to vent. And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on? Or. Is there anything we can do or what predicated this? And it was just, it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session, but it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private. That I didn't, I wasn't ready to share with the, the whole world. 

ISSA RAE: That’s dope but y'all had to make a whole construct to do that.

MICHELLE OBAMA: With cigars and margaritas and whatnot.

CRAIG ROBINSON: That's how, that's how -

ISSA RAE: Once you out to chair of angst, you can't be angsty no more. No more questions. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, no more questions. No, no more questions. 

ISSA RAE: No more questions, no more problems. That’s it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me, your sister. We, we don't let it go. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: They don't let it go.You all are just like a dog with a bone. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You were never at the chair because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened that today? 

ISSA RAE: What happened? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife and which has helped me communicate, right? Because I say all the time our relationship, relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general because I, I get it. I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk, but I have to be intentional about, she needs this. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Mm-hmm. And you need it too. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: With my friends, I never, if I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's, we, we never get there like that. 

ISSA RAE: So a friend has never disappointed you? Because you don't have expectations of them?

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, friends have disappointed, but I, it doesn't injure me as deeply. And, and if your next question is do I approach 'em and say, Hey, you really disappointed me, I have, and I think that's why we keep our friendship. 

ISSA RAE: And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they've approached you and said, Hey, this is, you didn't show up in this way. And I'm, I'm upset. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I have not, at the risk of sounding cocky.

ISSA RAE: Oh, because you're a good, you're good friend. I keep hitting this wrong. That's okay, because you're a good friend. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I hope that I am. 

ISSA RAE: You seem like you're a good friend. You have a sister, you have to be a good friend.

CRAIG ROBINSON: It, it, it, but it's, it, it's, it's doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface. 

ISSA RAE: But I think you're, you, you allow people to just be comfortable with you.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes. 

ISSA RAE: And I think that absolutely, that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way, but if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going, Like keep them around? You'll never be like, Hey, I kind of don't like hanging around, uh, you kind of get on my nerves.

CRAIG ROBINSON: So this is a really good question, and I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. After a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as, as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends and they're gonna be my friends and new people that I met, meet that I haven't known for a long time, who are friends, the shift to the right, and they don't make the shift to the right. We just don't communicate as much. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Mm-hmm. I saw call that the slow ghost. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: She calls it the slow ghost. It doesn't, it, it doesn't -

MICHELLE OBAMA: It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, and, and do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy. You just sort of -

CRAIG ROBINSON: Just let it, let it die. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Let, let it die a natural, quiet death. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah, and it does.

CRAIG ROBINSON: And which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted. 

ISSA RAE: Me neither. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I don't mind that. Now -

ISSA RAE: If it didn't matter. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: If it didn't matter, it didn’t matter.

ISSA RAE: Surface.

CRAIG ROBINSON: But let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost and then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town, wanna go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure. And you all are laughing. But that is how we operate. That is how we operate. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: All is forgiven. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Just look at us. The guys in here are all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Wait a minute, women don't do that. 

ISSA RAE: I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I got too many people I mess with because there's nothing worse than like, like having, sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about, and then you have to like make plans together, if the slow ghosts allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything and it's, it's fine.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Ouch. 

ISSA RAE: But even with your friends, I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with, inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you, you become who you are supposed to be. There are no friends that you've grown up with, that you have where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally, or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore? There's never been that, and that thought has never crossed your mind. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: The, the guys who I like, say grammar school people who were my friends. I'm still in touch with, 

ISSA RAE: And they've never since, since grammar school. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Since, since high school, first day of high school. 

ISSA RAE: Okay. Okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends. Is that to say that you've never even fought? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, we fought. Yeah, but it's, it's - 

ISSA RAE: It's not an emotional fight?

MICHELLE OBAMA: They don’t fight. There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like there's just, there's not a lot going on. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: There's, there's no emotional fight. You're talking about, I'm, I thought you're talking about like a fight.

ISSA RAE: Like no, and that's not like, guys, to me, y'all will be like, like y'all physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha. I'm the beta. That's it. We're good for life. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Let's go have a beer. 

ISSA RAE: Yes and no. If I, if I physically fight one of my female friends, it's, it's over. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, you all don't physically fight. But I get it, I get it. 

ISSA RAE: But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or decide this isn't the right relationship. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, I just think it goes back to the, the level, you know, and again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my, my brother, it's like, you know, your, your friends sort of hover around the surface and it's real meaningful friendships, but they, they're, they're, they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women, you know, until -

CRAIG ROBINSON: There is a crisis. Then we go deep. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: It goes straight to death, you know? The funeral.

MICHELLE OBAMA: But I mean, because that's what the crisis is for these superficial friendships, it’s gotta be like a thing that happens. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Could be something going on with your kids, or it could be a divorce or it could be, you know, a car accident. 

ISSA RAE: It could be something super dire. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yeah. Yeah. So a crisis, but it's not -

MICHELLE OBAMA: And a crisis for women is just like, you know - 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Every day!

ISSA RAE: Don't do us like that. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Oh man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

MICHELLE OBAMA: I'll give you an example because my husband doesn't fully understand it, and he's got great friends, for instance, that he has since high school. I know his friends, meaningful, but when I'm, when I a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days because it's going to take us - 

ISSA RAE: So much time to catch up.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Two days to check up, right? And we're not planning anything. We are gonna sit right here and we will be here. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Too many rules!

ISSA RAE & MICHELLE OBAMA: It's not even a rule! 

ISSA RAE: It’s just kicking it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: This is what we do, and this is what it's gonna take. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: So you gotta stay for two days. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: So I'll have one of my good girlfriends over spending the night, friends with Barack.

ISSA RAE: Heaven.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Love, love, all that. We're sit, we sit on a couch, there's something in front of us. Tea crackers, move to wine, you know? But we get up at 10:00 AM. We start the check-in. 

ISSA RAE: Ah, that sounds beautiful. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: And it begins with, first of all, girl, how you, you know, tell me about you now. Alright, now, now that's an hour, just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in. Right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about, because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were gonna let go? What happened with that girl? 

ISSA RAE: She's still there? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Oh man, what, what did she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Mm-hmm. Now, now it's lunchtime, right? On on day one. Now Barack's come in, he's come out and he's like, y'all still talking? He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys? 

ISSA RAE: You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know? Then it's three o'clock and he is like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid. 

ISSA RAE: Oh my gosh. I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh my God. Oh my God. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: It's, well that's, 48 hours, it’s 48 hours 'cause each kid has, you know, we know the eat issues and the things we've, you know, now we're at dinner on day one. Right. So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how. What are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not, we are just scratching the surface. 

ISSA RAE: And do you know that it's so, oh my, it feels so good after they leave. It's just like there's no better feeling than, than like I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything I've been holding. I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yes. Always save some stories. Yes. 

ISSA RAE: Like I can't tell, like there, there's friendship, there's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I want to be mad at someone and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her because she's never gonna, she's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need, I need to know -

MICHELLE OBAMA: The truth. 

ISSA RAE: Yes, I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it, and they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like gonna listen and I can grab, but everybody has a function in some way, and they're just, it's just, it's cathartic. It's so, it's so beautiful and that's why I'm just, I don't understand -

MICHELLE OBAMA: On the flip side my husband, right, 'cause he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's ex? He's good. It's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, well what? You were golfing all day -

ISSA RAE: And it never came up. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: And it never came up. You never asked about our godson, for example, you with his father. How is he? I don't, I dunno. I think he's good. It's like, what? What were you all doing? Sitting in a cart? I mean and, you know -

ISSA RAE: Talking about literally nothing. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Surface.

MICHELLE OBAMA:You don’t have no information. And that's the difference. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Yes. It is.

MICHELLE OBAMA: 'Cause you'll be with each other all day looking directly away from each other. At a ball, right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, there are tears. It's like, that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt. When, when you break up, or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of -

ISSA RAE: Intimacy.

CRAIG ROBINSON: I maintain that the chair of angst with me, Jimmy and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Okay. I don't know how you get anything outta sitting in a chair for dinner.

ISSA RAE: Because you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right? 

CRAIG ROBINSON: You know, it does it, it it, it takes a crisis to get it going. 

ISSA RAE: This is also why women live longer 'cause we're getting a lot of that out and not to take it there, but y'all keep it in here. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Dually noted. We do. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: ‘Cause the crisis would require an emergency session. 

ISSA RAE: Oh my God. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Like somebody's on a train. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah. Flying. Mm-hmm. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You know? Like there's, there's movement. Yeah. And you're not gonna deal with the crisis. Yeah and it’s like we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis. 

ISSA RAE: My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is, I took off work. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: That is a script. That is something you could write on television.

ISSA RAE: It’s true though because that’s like, it means planning and doing a text like, you know, she's not gonna be good. Like, she's, she doesn't need this right now. You know? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Right, right. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: You know what's so horrible about that is guys would be like, damn. That's it.

ISSA RAE: Yeah.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Not a crisis. Obviously not a crisis.

CRAIG ROBINSON: Sorry.

ISSA RAE: Send the dog emoji. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Or dude, I didn't know you had a dog. 

ISSA RAE: Yeah, what? When’d you get a dog?

CRAIG ROBINSON: Okay. We are, we are bad.

ISSA RAE: One of my friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express, guys in text, don't know how to express emojis emotions, and will use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt, dang. Fire emoji, ghost emoji. Just, you just don't have the language for it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings you're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are, but I'm 60 so I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. So why do we have emotion-ojis? They they're literal. It's like hot dog. Hot dog. I'm hungry. I want lunch. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: I for one don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously.

ISSA RAE: Oh Eva.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah, we forgot about Eva. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: No, we almost, we -

ISSA RAE: Well, she lost the thread. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: I know. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, is it possible to set boundaries in a friendship? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: For sure. Yes. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: If it’s that's unbalanced?

ISSA RAE: That's why I'm like, you have to be honest about like, hey girl, like I'm, I have a lot on my plate and I'm. That's hard to say. Yeah, I was gonna, 'cause I was, yeah, I was gonna say like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, 'cause I have been, I feel like I, I give you more energy than I have just been like, I've blamed it on work, I've blamed it on, I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me because you, you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend and I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher to your friends that like do get your time and energy that you do consider those people or, or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends, um, and that's a whole different situation, but I don't, I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you, that that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: So, yeah, it, it's, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you wanna be? How do you, how do you wanna show up? Um, you know, and, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want, and you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time 'cause we're pouring that energy out. Like, I'm, I'm, I understand you before I understand me. You know? 

ISSA RAE: Yes. That’s so real. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without, without opening themselves up. Because that's hard, you know, and maybe what I would say to Eva is maybe it's time for her to just, she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship, um, and how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

ISSA RAE: And make some friends with some guys.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Right. Or, or you know, be okay. Then understand that there will be times and then she, that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over. Right? Not take it to heart if that's the kind of friend you are, are because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna, how you need to show up for people. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: And what's, what's an example of that? How showing up is that just, I hear, I hear communication. I get that. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Yeah. But understanding who your friend is and what they need. Like, you know, being a little more considerate mm-hmm. About the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship, sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. Right. And with friends. You don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner, but you do have to be aware. You know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend, and so you gotta, you know, you, you, you're gonna have to give people what they need to. At some point to get what you need. It's this, it's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, um - 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Brutal honesty?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I, I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That, that means a lot to me.

ISSA RAE: Same. But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition. That maybe you're also not compatible. 'cause some of it, some, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive. They're instinctual. Like you, you don't have to, you don't have to try, um, you, you are the end to the yang. You're, you fit in like puzzle pieces and then they're, they're, you know, when they're missteps you can talk about 'em comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're, you're offending. And it, this feels like very much like Eva had to try too hard to be something she was not, to be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have. You haven't had to do all that and the worst friendships I've had that have, I've silently ghosted, or that have silently ghosted me. It just, it was hard to manage. Like, there were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable. So yeah, being honest with yourself about that is, is crucial. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: And how old is Eva again? 

ISSA RAE: Yeah, that, I was wondering that too.

NATALIE: 32. 

EVERYONE: 32?

ISSA RAE: Oh yeah. This is when people started falling off, girl. Your thirties is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there and does this, does she have kids? 

NATALIE: No. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: And it's gonna whittle even more what, you know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. And I think that's also what I would say to Eva. It's like, this is life. You know? And like she said in earlier, friends aren't family. You know, and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. You know, um, friends will, there, there are seasons for friends, um, and who knows in their forties or fifties they may reconnect.

CRAIG ROBINSON: So, so this is perfect because I'm thinking back to Eva. One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship. If you want it to be a, a another way based, I'm, I'm learning from you all, if I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, Hey look, this is what I want out of a relationship, and if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well, and that's what her friend essentially did, you know. 

ISSA RAE: But her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, Hey, and said beforehand, I feel, yeah, this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last straw. Like, yeah, my relative died. You didn't show up. This has been unbalanced and maybe, maybe it became clear to her in that moment. Which I think she said, yeah. She said like, right. She did. All of a sudden, You ain't shit. Like I realize that and that's just, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I wonder if Eva also fought for it. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Doesn't, it sounds like she's in contemplation about it.

ISSA RAE: About fighting for it? 

MICHELLE OBAMA: About letting it go. It sounds, it feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it but I don't think we have that. 

ISSA RAE: Do you guys do follow ups, you know, dang. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: Well we could, you know that. 

ISSA RAE: I need to know. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Well, let, let's, let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva, and then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

ISSA RAE: Well, one of the things is, I think you mentioned it, is like if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, Hey guys, how don't I,. Am I take it to your, yeah, take it to your council, what are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad, bad friend and like use that to become a better friend.

MICHELLE OBAMA: I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32, this is how it goes. You know, people come, people go, um, you know, even hurts can be healed because you know who, who knows will you be when you're 50? Mm-hmm. You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows and in, in the meantime, what I would tell her is, use this as an opportunity since you're bothered by it to figure out how you can grow. 

ISSA RAE: And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no, uh, expectation of a response. If you, if you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology. Say where you're coming from and let that person know, Hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you, I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. Um, the door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this thought, like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

MICHELLE OBAMA:  Hmm. I like that. 

CRAIG ROBINSON:I like that too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said. Just get a guy friend. 

ISSA RAE: Honestly, you want a low maintenance relationship. You want a low, get a guy friend. Get a guy, friend. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: No maintenance and, and don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: Eva, we really care about you.

ISSA RAE: No, for real. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: You'll be good girl. 

CRAIG ROBINSON: You'll be all right. 

MICHELLE OBAMA: This is, this is how the, as you said,<