Scroll down for a transcription of this episode.
Across school campuses and communities, students and educators are discovering how listening, curiosity, and everyday conversations can open pathways across differences and help restore a sense of shared humanity.
Summary: How do we learn to truly communicate with people who are deeply different than us? In this episode of The Science of Happiness, we follow students and educators practicing the skills of empathy and courageous listening in classrooms and on the road. Their experiences reveal how intentional conversations can open unexpected pathways toward understanding and shared humanity.
How To Do This Practice:
- Observe Before You Interpret: Spend a few minutes noticing the environment around you and ask yourself: What do people here see, hear, say, think, and need?
- Approach with Curiosity: Start with simple human connection—small talk, a question about their day, or genuine interest in their community.
- Signal That You're There to Listen: Make it clear your goal is understanding, not persuading, debating, or changing anyone's mind.
- Practice Democratic Listening: Give your full attention through eye contact, nodding, and brief acknowledgments, while resisting the urge to agree, disagree, or jump in with your own views.
- Stay Relaxed Through Discomfort: When differences emerge, maintain "relaxed awareness"—remaining open, attentive, and calm rather than defensive or reactive.
- Reflect and Learn: Afterward, ask yourself: What helped create connection? What got in the way? What might I try differently next time?
Today’s Guests:
JESSE KELLY is a McNair and MacArthur fellow and a recent graduate of Bowie State University, Maryland's oldest historically black university.
Learn more about Jesse Kelly here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessekellyjr/
LIA HOWARD is the director of the Political Empathy Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
Learn more about Lia Howards here: https://snfpaideia.upenn.edu/people/lia-howard/
Related The Science of Happiness episodes:
How to Feel Less Lonely and More Connected: https://tinyurl.com/2s3tbchd
When It's Hard To Connect, Try Being Curious: https://tinyurl.com/mr32nwtv
An Awe Walk Through History and Possibility: https://tinyurl.com/mr3arrbc
Related Happiness Breaks:
A Meditation on the Uniqueness of Your Own Voice: https://tinyurl.com/36x3fbk7
A Meditation on Original Love and Interconnectedness: https://tinyurl.com/mu2uzs2c
Our Deep Interconnectedness: https://tinyurl.com/y2epxyxn
Message us or leave a comment on Instagram @scienceofhappinesspod. E-mail us at happinesspod@berkeley.edu or use the hashtag #happinesspod.
Help us share The Science of Happiness! Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or share this link with someone who might like the show: https://tinyurl.com/2p9h5aap
Transcription:
DACHER KELTNER: This episode was supported by generous grants from the Educating Character Initiative at Wake Forest University and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations as part of the Greater Good Science Center's work on bridging differences in higher education
JESSE KELLY JR: The Morningside campus of Columbia is situated in Manhattan, but in this particular neighborhood, it's Harlem. So Harlem bears great significance when you're thinking of Black culture, especially in the 20th century. I'm in Harlem, and I got to stop by and see the Cotton Club. And so the minute I say that, everyone in the room looks at me and just goes, "What's the Cotton Club?" And I said, "Oh my God." This has been a place where Black talent has emerged, and some of the greatest of all time have come here and performed. I think something that is important about me being there is that I wouldn't exactly call myself an elite anything, right? I don't come from the space, but I understand that Harlem is rich in the same way that coming up in Maryland, Baltimore is rich. And so I come to Columbia with that knowledge, and it's something that I intend to share in that space.
DACHER KELTNER: Welcome to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Across communities, people are finding ways to bridge differences through listening, curiosity, and moments of human connection. Research suggests that even brief interactions rooted in empathy and understanding can help build trust and reduce polarization. We'll hear how colleges and universities can become places where people practice the skills needed to connect across differences. We also know from studies that bridging divides can begin in environments like universities, large communities that help shape culture, conversation, and how people relate to one another.
JESSE KELLY JR: If you don't get the exposure, you don't know what it's like to communicate or collaborate with people outside of what your community is, and that's a weak point.
DACHER KELTNER: We also look at ways students are learning how to build connections and understanding by hitting the roads of Pennsylvania with professor and political scientist Lia Howard.
LIA HOWARD: When the 2024 presidential election was approaching, I asked if a team of students and I could travel around the state all summer and just have conversations with people, just listen to other people.
DACHER KELTNER: More after this break.
DACHER KELTNER: Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Bridging our differences isn't just a nice idea right now. It's essential if we want a safer, more stable world. Even though it's often easier to stay in our comfort zones, research shows there are tools to make connections across differences possible, like really listening closely to someone and creating spaces where people feel accepted. We're joined by Jesse Kelly. He's a recent graduate of Bowie State University, Maryland's oldest historically Black university, or HBCU. He's also a McNair and MacArthur Fellow. Jesse's here to share how staying grounded in where he comes from and who he is has helped him connect more deeply with others and find a shared sense of humanity, especially in difficult or uncomfortable moments. Jesse, thanks for joining us.
JESSE KELLY JR: Dacher, I appreciate you. Thank you. That was a very warm introduction, and it's an honor to be here.
DACHER KELTNER: Tell us about your experience at Bowie and what you studied and what it was like to be at a historically Black university and college compared to where you came from.
JESSE KELLY JR: I knew that it was important for me to learn about myself at my HBCU, and for many HBCU scholars, that's what this experience is. And I think for me, it didn't make me want to make myself so immersed in my culture that I can't examine others, right? To even look down on other cultures, but instead, it gives me the confidence to show up as myself into the next space and then say, "Okay, this is who I am. Now I wanna know about who you are."
DACHER KELTNER: I wanted to ask you, you know, turning to getting along across differences or bridging divides, you took part in a social justice workshop at Bowie that really was influential for you, and I'm just curious if you could kinda walk us through what the workshop was and what it meant to you.
JESSE KELLY JR: So this particular workshop was entitled “Rich With Love”, and it was a part of the Social Justice Alliance, which is a collaboration between the University of Maryland and Bowie State University. I was selected to attend the event and get the opportunity to engage and exchange ideas and opinions with students from the University of Maryland, and it was a very enriching experience. Sometimes it can be weird because your schools are so close, right? Bowie is in maybe about 15, 20 minutes from the UMD campus, but I think the way that HBCU culture and PWI culture, you know, the way that they're separate, and sometimes they function... more often than not, they function separately. One of my mentors said, and I fully agree with this, "Spending too much time in either/or, you become insulated." And so you don't know what it's like to communicate or collaborate with people outside of what your community is, and that's a weak point, you know?
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. What did you guys do in the workshop?
JESSE KELLY JR: So in the workshop, they had different prompts, right? And so in the prompts, they'll explain like, "Hey, this is something that I fear. This is something that I love. This is something that I care about. And you are going to be paired up with somebody random, and y'all are going to have a conversation." So as a Bowie student, I'm paired up with someone from University of Maryland, and we sit down and we have a conversation. The young lady that I got to work with, her name is Pratikia, and so we got to exchange ideas about family, about fear. Funny enough, one of the things that allowed us to click was just talking about just being anxious, especially in social engagements, right? I say that something that I do is just embrace the awkward, right? So I'll just point out, like, "Hey, isn't it just weird that all of us are looking at each other and we're waiting on someone to speak?"
And that was something that, for her, it helped to break the tension, and it's just like, say that it's awkward, and then we can move on from there. But let's not pretend that we know all the rules to this, you know? So that was one of the ways in which we just kinda understand each other as people having human experiences, and I think that was really the heart of the event. It's just about through all of these different ideas and feelings and things that separate us as people, the thing that we have to recognize and allow to draw us back together is our humanity.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah. How do you-- Like, with the facilitators, I mean, that's such a deep lesson and so hard today, just like- We all have fears, we all have vulnerabilities, we all struggle. How did the facilitators get you guys to that deep insight about this shared humanity?
JESSE KELLY JR: I think one of the ways of them doing that is, it's not allowing people into their comfort zone. So imagine that you have a room full of people, right? And let's say, you know, maybe four. You're gonna wanna sit with those four people, right?
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
JESSE KELLY JR: This was not happening, and so I think those were rules that were not explicitly stated, but just in the development of the actual program, it was felt, and so I thought that was amazing. So it wasn't like I could just say, "Oh, okay, I remember her from this class," or, "Okay, that's a Bowie student I'm gonna sit with." It addresses the tension immediately.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah, exactly right. You're heading off to Columbia Grad School, and congratulations, and-
JESSE KELLY JR: Thank you ...
DACHER KELTNER: And one of the things we learned from the science of cross-race interactions and diverse interactions is if you're a person of color, you know, it's just different for you. You're gonna have more stress hormones released, cortisol. That's Wendy Mendes-Berry, Rudy Mendoza-Denton. You know, you just... The environment is more threatening and feels more threatening. You know, what do you think about how these institutions that you're part of, like Columbia, going to grad school, it's a very privileged place. Tell me about that process of, man, now you're going to one of the great grad schools in the world. What's that like for you?
JESSE KELLY JR: I'll tell a little anecdote from my visit. The Morningside campus of Columbia is situated in Manhattan, but in this particular neighborhood, it's Harlem. So Harlem bears great significance when you're thinking of Black culture, especially in the 20th century. You know, it's the epicenter, it's the namesake of the Harlem Renaissance, right? For me to be in Harlem was surreal, right? And I knew that much coming into New York City. This is my first time entering New York City. Excuse me, second time, but it's my first time in Harlem. And so when I go to the event, it was like a social, and I'm talking to some of the people that I met, and they're just like, "Okay, this is your first time in New York. Like, did you go sightseeing? Have you enjoyed yourself?" And I said, "Oh my God, it was amazing. You know, like, I'm in Harlem, and I got to stop by and see the Cotton Club." And so the minute I say that, everyone in the room looks at me and just goes, "What's the Cotton Club?" And I said, "Oh my God, you don't know?" And so-
DACHER KELTNER: Historic.
JESSE KELLY JR: Right. And so, you know, I tell them a little bit about the Cotton Club and just like, "Hey, this has been a place where Black talent has emerged, and some of the greatest of all time have come here and performed. This is where, you know, the Nicholas Brothers, Duke Ellington," you know. This is huge to be there, right? And so it made me think that, hey, you can be in a particular space, but you still have to examine the culture, right? I think something that is important about me being there is that I wouldn't exactly call myself an elite anything, right? But-
DACHER KELTNER: Now you are.
JESSE KELLY JR: Right. But with all humility, but I don't come from the space, but I understand that Harlem is rich in the same way that, you know, coming up in Maryland, Baltimore is rich. There's a whole world outside and a whole culture that comes from working-class people, and that's what I understand, and that's what I know. And so I come to Columbia with that knowledge, and it's something that I intend to share in that space. I don't look at it as, "Okay, I'm going to an elite school. I have to do away with my old self and..." You know.
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah.
JESSE KELLY JR: It blended, too. You take-
DACHER KELTNER: Yeah
JESSE KELLY JR: .. where it is you come from, and then you take what you're learning, and you pull it together. What I can appreciate is that Columbia is receptive to that, so it wasn't like they just were like, "Oh, we don't, we don't do that." You know, the people that I met, they're like, "Wow, like, you really understand where it is that you're coming from, and, like, we definitely need people like you." And I think having that level of openness is going to be important no matter where you go.
DACHER KELTNER: We know scientifically courage is where, you know, you still have the fear, but parts of your brain help you make it strong, right? And help you learn from it. What are you learning about courage?
JESSE KELLY JR: I think that life is scary anyway. I think especially in this day and time, I think we live with great uncertainty. Some people will say that like, "Okay, the world is already ending," or, "It's going horribly. You might as well just, you know, live out your dream." I don't necessarily think in that capacity. I think about who I feel like I owe it to to show up, because it was a lot of people that came before me that poured into me, that afforded me the opportunities, but there's a lot of gambling and risk-taking that takes place over nearly 100 years. And you're talking about 100 years of not a single person, or rather not a single man in my family going to college, and that starts with me. And I think I've always understood that.
DACHER KELTNER: My final question is just your broader reflections about our society. You know, the workshop gets people into these uncomfortable situations, like you said, and you're talking to people in a different educational community and learning about common humanity. I wonder just what your broader reflections are for, you know, how can institutions like Columbia, Berkeley, that you're now gonna be part of, the colleges and universities, how can we get more people to tell the story that you're telling us of being part of a great tradition and honoring the people who've contributed to your life?
JESSE KELLY JR: I think with any minority or group of underserved or overlooked people, it's always the platform of telling our stories and also allowing us to follow up behind them with meaningful action. I think being able to reach outward, not just from institution to institution, but also from institution to the communities that institutions embed themselves in, because sometimes the work that we do, it can be we're contained in this small space, and then there's the rest of the world, and I don't think that's exactly how it should be. Some of the textbooks that I read at an HBCU that are materials that are required come from Ivy League scholars. You know what I mean? But imagine if we have work in a Ivy League classroom that comes from thinkers outside of the Ivies, because there's still amazing scholars that are out there, you know? So I think always just being able to reach out and understand that while your understood is the best of the best, you gotta come down from the cloud, you know? And I think that's something that's going to be central to my work as I navigate this space as well.
DACHER KELTNER: Well, Jesse Kelly, I wanted to thank you for telling your story. You know, we study stories of moral beauty in our lab, you know, and people's courage and humility and promoting justice in the world make us feel inspired, and that's what you've given me today, and I bet you're gonna give to a lot of people in your future as you make progress. So thank you so much for being here.
JESSE KELLY JR: I appreciate you, Dacher. Thank you so much for having me.
DACHER KELTNER: Now we'll hear from Lia Howard, director of the Political Empathy Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her students are studying and testing approaches to empathy, listening, and connection across political and social divides by getting in a van and traveling around Pennsylvania to talk with people from different backgrounds.
STUDENT (NATALIE) : Each random passerby is living a life as vivid and as complex as your own.
LIA HOWARD: Here where students encountering maybe types of people they'd never encountered before, certainly types of places they'd never encountered before, we were discovering narratives about America.
DACHER KELTNER: But before they even spoke with people, they started with making what they called an empathy map.
LIA HOWARD: It's this idea that you basically use observation before interpretation. So what do people who live here see? What do people who live here say? What do people who live here think?
DACHER KELTNER: Up next, how empathy mapping and other techniques are helping people better understand one another. Stay with us.
DACHER KELTNER: Welcome back to The Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. We've been talking about how universities can be common ground for people to connect across differences. Now, we'll hear from Lia Howard, director of the Political Empathy Lab at the University of Pennsylvania, where students are not only practicing connections across differences, but researching what helps make those connections possible. Truc Nguyen has the story.
TRUC NGUYEN: In 2024, Lia Howard started taking her students out of the classroom and onto the road, turning the state of Pennsylvania into a kind of living lab.
LIA HOWARD: I had a team that first summer of seven students, plus myself, so eight of us traveling in a van with a driver, which was awesome.
TRUC NGUYEN: Howard gets her students to have conversations with people, traveling to cities like Gettysburg and Scranton, to more rural areas to talk with people across the state. She calls it the Political Empathy Lab.
LIA HOWARD: What we are trying to do is to produce a repertoire, a collection of different skills and ways to connect with others across difference.
TRUC NGUYEN: When the students arrive to a new place, they walk around to connect with it, making empathy maps. It's a perspective-taking exercise.
LIA HOWARD: So what do people who live here hear? What do people who live here see? What do people who live here say? What do people who live here think? And then what do people who live here need?
TRUC NGUYEN: This exercise is meant to train the skill of observation without interpretation. And when the students are ready to approach people, they make it clear they're there just to listen, not to canvas or take a poll.
LIA HOWARD: You're gonna try to create common ground that you want to indicate that you think that they're worth listening to.
TRUC NGUYEN: Howard urges her students to listen closely and stay present because research shows when you give someone your full attention, doing simple things like nodding or giving a quick "Uh-huh," it can make a real difference.
LIA HOWARD: You don't even have to say anything, but if you indicate that you're respectful and listening, people feel better about your political party, even if it's different than your own.
TRUC NGUYEN: Students always have the choice to leave a conversation, but Howard says even when things get really hard, most of the time students stay with it.
LIA HOWARD: And I feel like that's a kind of gym, a repetition or a, a staying power, and then landing the conversation.
TRUC NGUYEN: After each interaction, the students debrief.
LIA HOWARD: We developed strategies, like what worked in that conversation? What didn't work in that conversation? What political issues matter to you? Maybe I should have led with what issues do you care about? And just the word change. How do I create a sense of belonging in a short conversation?
TRUC NGUYEN: Howard's research shows conversations go deeper when people stay humble, try to understand one another, and set aside the reflex to immediately agree or disagree.
LIA HOWARD: Empathy is both a process and an outcome. You're using it in order to gain it, you know, which is really cool. And I really saw that firsthand happen, that when students were able to talk to one person or a group themselves, the conversation itself had a curative effect because it was a small, like a micro space of belonging.
TRUC NGUYEN: When students are able to make a connection, these moments become a source of energy and agency, and there's a sense that there might actually be a path forward. Howard also reminds her students that they aren't therapists. They need to express their own thoughts and beliefs, too.
LIA HOWARD: It's not your Uncle Frank that you see every Thanksgiving. It's a stranger. The stakes are kind of low. And so you can practice with someone in, you know, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, what you then will say later with Uncle Frank. I think a lot about how much the world we live in right now wants to divide us, and the attention economy wants to divide us from the ability to think deeply. Along every line of difference, we are divided and incentivized to be divided along those differences in demography or geography or economics.
TRUC NGUYEN: But when we emerge from our echo chambers, that division softens. Howard and her students will be getting on the road again this fall, right before the midterm election in Pennsylvania, which is a swing state. In the last two presidential elections, the margin between the two top candidates was less than 2%.
LIA HOWARD: We'll have a set of policy issues, but I'm mostly interested in students gaining a deeper understanding of place and then bringing the issues up in these different places and comparing, like, what does public education look like in parts of Pennsylvania versus other parts? What does healthcare, as hospitals close left and right, what does it look like in certain parts?
TRUC NGUYEN: This summer, Howard encourages people to travel to other nearby cities and states and treat them with curiosity.
LIA HOWARD: Take that wonder into places that you might not think are worthy of the wonder, and then be surprised.
DACHER KELTNER: How can we stay connected to moments of awe? Not just on big adventures, but in the midst of everyday life.
DORIEN DAVIES: It can just be the grass at 5:00 in the morning when you have a sick dog. You just have to find that literacy.
DACHER KELTNER: Through neighborhood walks, giant sequoias, and the imaginative world of Wowsabout, a new PBS series, we explore how moments of wonder can reconnect both kids and adults to nature, creativity, and each other.
WOWSABOUT SPECIAL AUDIO
RONALD: It makes me wonder.
ROXY: It makes me wow.
RONALD: That is what I'm feeling now.
DACHER KELTNER: That's next time on The Science of Happiness. Our associate producers are Emily Brower, Tarini Kakkar, and Anna Zou. Our producer is Truc Nguyen. Our sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of Accompany Studios. Our executive producer is Shuka Kalantari. I'm Dacher Keltner. Thank you for listening to The Science of Happiness. Have a great day.
Comments