By Mark on Nov 4, 2009

Tough, tough issue. Probably best addressed family by family. Unresolvable conflict takes a toll on everyone, literally upon their nervous systems, often raising and sustaining glucocorticoid measures way beyond acceptable levels. One result can often be serious cognitive and physical illness, as evidenced by Robert Sapolsky’s, Bruce McEwen’s, Doug Bremner’s and Arthur Janov’s individual works.

By Nancy Prisby, MSW on Nov 4, 2009

Important subject–one that many parents struggle with, thanks for bringing it up. I just want to comment on the statement: “Parental conflict is not good for children’s happiness.” I would change it up to “Acting on the anger/strong emotions that result from parental conflict is not good for children’s happiness.” This is why: Shying away from conflict and putting on a facade that everything is always OK provides a disservice for children. Conflict is part of life and inherent in human relationships. If we can work to manage strong emotions and model how to work through some of it, this is helpful. Of course, many adult conflicts are better left unseen/unheard by children. At the same time, we can teach by modeling, “We’re having a disagreement, I need to calm down first and then talk about it.”
Thanks again for bringing up this important issue.

By Sofia on Nov 4, 2009

From a mother’s perspective…Three very real issues you do not at all address:
A. What is the level of the mother’s ability to provide ECONOMICALLY? Statistics on divorce and childhood poverty?
B. Think parenthood nowadays is overly busy, hectic and over-extended? Try single parenthood. When do you ever get time to play, hang out, enjoy your children and show them that you enjoy being with them? Almost never.
C. Potential nightmare STEPMOTHERS. Stepmothers have a lot of say in what your children experience growing up.

By Sofia on Nov 4, 2009

One more issue I forgot to mention:
SERIAL parenting. What are the statistics on serial divorce? Isn’t it OFTEN not just an issue of a one-time divorce??? If you have serious issues with a spouse, consider what the spouse’s level of good judgement is going to be in choosing their NEXT spouse, and the one after that? etc. etc.
How much instability is REALLY okay for the children? Isn’t divorce the ultimate role-modeling for how NOT to get along?

By Brandi on Nov 4, 2009

Wow did this ever hit home. I don’t know about staying in the marriage for the kids but trying, with everything you have, to make it better and to make it work, for the kids is definitely something you should consider. It is so easy to give up, to give in and to head out, telling yourself you did your best, you tried your hardest as you pat yourself on the back for finally “getting out.” In the long run, everyone fights, everyone can be “mean” and everyone has issues. When you look back after 10 years, the commitment
you made to happiness, to your family, to try, to love and to dedicate your heart to your husband and your life together will matter more then anything else. Then, 10 years later, all the work, all the progress you’ve made, it pays off in the end, it is worth it for you, for your children for your home. You can rest assured I’ve been to the breaking point, I’ve had the thoughts, the moments where I want out, where I want better, easier, happier but the commitment has to be there or else how can anyone ever accomplish anything in the long-term. You really have to sit back and look at what is going on, what you are doing, what could be better, who could change and sometimes you have to suck it up and try a lot harder than you want to for a lot longer then you wanted to. I am NOT saying to stay in an emotionally/verbally or physically abusive relationship, but make sure you did all you can before you stop doing anything.
While it isn’t fun, a time comes when you have to really review what is going on, what your thoughts are and why they are there. The life you give to your children should matter more to you then anything else and if you can make a life work, a family work and a home work long-term, they will be better off than you’ll ever know.

By Chris Cicchetti on Nov 4, 2009

As you point out, parental conflict is not good for kids whether or not the parents are married. Seems like one question to ask oneself might be: \Will getting a divorce really reduce the conflict between us?\ Once you have kids, it’s not like you can get a divorce and just walk away from the person and have no more contact. (Well, OK, it’s possible, but we are talking about what is good for the kids here, and obviously that isn’t!) Will there really be less fighting, or will a contentious marriage become a contentious divorce?

By Ana on Nov 4, 2009

What a question! I am currently struggling with it my self. I putted off for a long time, and now the roosters are coming home to roost. I watched my own parents struggle and I always told my self I will never do that, I will never stay in a relationship just for my kids. Now, here I am in their shoes and is such a taught decision to make. Although, my parent had their fair share of issues, their relationship was never the abusive kind. I guess it was somehow easy for me to say “mom, why you do not divorce him?” when I had no clue what having divorce parents mean. My husband comes from a divorce family and I can tell you it was not fun for him. But what is that breaking point where you decide that is does not longer work? When do you stop fighting and trying? Is having an abusive relationship the only thing that should count on getting divorce? How about loneliness, feeling like a furniture in a house, emptiness and abandonment? Is it really going to be better with someone else? These are all questions I find my self constantly trying to answer. I see my parents now, luckily they have overcome a lot of the issues and they seem happier than ever.I do not know if that will be my case or not but at least it shows me that there could be a light at the end of the tunnel.

By Elizabeth on Nov 5, 2009

Christine, You are very brave to take on this topic! I also appreciate your willingness to share your struggles!
Sofia-these are all questions i struggle with…my counselor essentially said that she would no longer work with me if i decided to “suck it up” and stay in my marriage.
Brandi-It is not possible to stay in a relationship with someone when one person is doing all the work and the other person refuses to participate…or the way they interact is by constantly criticizing, yelling, etc. and you’re not even allowed to say a word…
I was so afraid to tell my daughter that daddy was moving out, but then she started a major campaign to get him out! She’s 9… this was another sign that i could not continue the relationship. Not only is it damaging me, her relationship with him is not healthy. Because of fear of all thethings you mentioned, I would probably have stuck it out. the realization of what his actions/behavior are doing to her is what made me finally take action.
He wants everything his way, he wants us to be perfect. There’s a double standard going on. He’s refused counseling for nearly a year.
This is a very complex issue…My mother had no options/education so she stayed but i prayed most days that we would be free of my father’s tyranny…Ironically, we only left when he beat on her but he was allowed to beat on my sister repeatedly…so you can see, I am reliving my childhood and now that it’s in my power not to participate in an unhealthy relationship, I have to stick up for myself (and my daughter) and learn not to be a doormat…
I have found that now that the contact is limited to once or twice a week things have improved a little.
I would say that the reason many divorces are happening now is that women have more education/options and are no longer willing to put up with being treated as second class citizens. Many men need a serious wake up call that we are no longer living in the 50s… OK, will get off my soapbox and take my kids to the playground now…

By chris on Nov 5, 2009

I am so glad to have seen this post. We are struggling in our house as well, though we have a few other factors beyond cruelty and fights.

I know I love him, but am not in love anymore. He is not able to just be himself anymore. He has depression, ADD and anxiety, and theses illnesses impact every single day. Sometimes just a little, sometimes alot. He is also not able to economically sustain himself. He is wonderful with our child. We know we are lucky, we have a place to live and the money I earn, but the day to day is killing me. So much rests on my shoulders, so much accommodation for his illness. I am a changed woman because of it. I feel like we both would be better off if we had space from each other, but our child seems happy with us both there. He gets his father’s love and camaraderie and my love and groundedness. I am not able to fully convey it all here, but some days I just want to cut the tie. I am tired, lonely, overburdened.

My child means more to me than life and I will do whatever seems best. And part of that is taking care of “Dad”. Having him in dire straights with shelter and such wouldn’t be good for any of us… And yet I still grapple with this question.

I am curious if there are others out there like me dealing with these things, and what their strategies or decisions have been.

By Mark on Nov 5, 2009

Here’s an article worth wading through that some folks might find useful. It’s written in academic-ese, so it’s not such an easy read, but it might help make sense of how and why we marry the people we do – essentially in a convoluted attempt to heal our own personal histories …

The Compulsion to Repeat the Trauma
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/vanderkolk/

By Brandi on Nov 5, 2009

Well, when is divorce NOT complicated? While I appreciate that concept, it seems as though the people who refer to their situations as “complicated” are somehow assuming that others aren’t complicated. The whole issues of marriage/divorce is absolutely complicated. Because of whatever issues my husband has (personal) it makes our day to day interactions varied from loving to distant to angered to confusing. Yes, I realize fighting is bad for the kids but find me a relationship where there is no fighting? Okay, I’m not saying stay, suffer and be miserable, I’m just saying TRY. Try everything before you give up. I’m of the wonderful generation of women who were blessed with education, independence and the ability to live on my own. That blessing has also given me the ability to constantly think that I don’t “need” someone else, nor do I need to put up with someone else’s problems/issues. It took three years of marriage for me to finally sit down, suck it up and just give “marriage”, “Partnership”, “patience” and “love” an actual chance. I always had one foot out the door. Oh, you are going to yell at me, well then I can just leave. I never made a true sacrifice for my marriage. I felt like I was, I felt that everyday was a struggle, to get out of bed, to see him, to talk to him to go to sleep next to him, it drained me of all life/energy/love that I had. Finally, when I stepped back and took a long hard look at what I was doing, I stopped feeling SO sorry for myself and decided it wasn’t about me. It was about our family as a whole. Our lives together with our children. Was that enough to figure out what to do to make it work? It has to be, if that’s not enough, what is? The important side note is that my husband does try, he tries as hard as he can and puts in as much effort as he can. On some days it is enough, on other days I consider putting my foot back out the door. But that’s the whole problem, once you start thinking about leaving, you aren’t giving anyone a fair chance at anything. You can’t commit to a life together when you have the door open to allow everything else into it. All babble aside. Some days I give 100% and some days he gives 10% or even some weeks it works that way but in the end the math evens out. I learned to create happiness NOT just for ME, but for my family. I have hobbies, I work, I exercise but not in the sense that I want those things for ME, I want to be a healthy, happy, successful wife, mother and friend. I want to be good to everyone in my life. Have you ever stopped and tried treating your husband as well as you treat your best friend? I noticed that I was always forgiving, patient and loving with my girlfriends. I was fun, energetic and active. I could blame that on my husband, saying he didn’t allow me to be that way, but I don’t think I had ever tried. Why would anyone assume marriage itself should feel natural. Combining your existence with anothers takes years and years of work, that’s the commitment you made. Forever is the time you’ve dedicated to making it work. No one says you have to stay, you have to keep trying or you have to suffer that is absolutely for YOU and only YOU to decide but know that it is a decision. You decide to stay and try or you decide to go. You decide to wake up and give it a shot, keeping your patience up, love up and anger down, sometimes more than you want and yup, sometimes it doesn’t feel “good” to be nice but tough.
I was in a marriage where I was ready to go, I suffered, I was miserable, I hated every single waking minute of my life. Was I in love with my husband, I don’t even think I was involved enough to be in “hate” with him. He tried, he did his best but I always felt like he owed me more. I don’t want to be yelled at, critisized or unliked by someone, but here I was living with someone who thought he had the right to constantly give me his opinion. I could barely manage to function, get out of bed and I thought that this was it, if this is how marriage is then I’m done, out and gone. I thought to myself that I finally understood my mom wanting to leave. Then someone pulled me aside (thank God) and said, stop thinking so much about yourself, about what you need to do, stop thinking that the entire day and its results are resting on your shoulders. Let it be what it is and see how to deal with that. Pray. Yes, she said Pray and I said YA RIGHT. I’m done trying, praying and being patient. She told me that’s the point, I need to be done, just let things be and handle them from there. Bad/good they aren’t always my fault. Dedicate yourself to your marriage for one month. I did it, and half way through my husband said he wanted divorced. He didn’t feel “right” because I was being so loving and patient, he said it wasn’t normal and he was uncomfortable, he thought I was pretending. Well, truth be told, I was for a little bit then the days got easier and loving him felt better and our family functioned a little more patiently together. There are still days when I HATE everything about it but there are more days when I’m so grateful that I was given the chance to do the right thing for me, for my husband, for my marriage and more importantly for my kids.
AGAIN- MY HUSBAND PUT FORTH THE EFFORT as well, I do not think that being battered, being hateful/hurtful and mean are acceptable. I just think sometimes you have to try beyond what you think you are capable of, if that still doesn’t work, then you make that decision. But always know, it was exactly that, your decision.

By Keith Wilcox on Nov 7, 2009

as with all things, this is a question of severity. There is no simple answer because an argument that might seem heated to some would seem downright mild to others. Also, kids have different levels of tolerances for argument. After all, this is why divorces happen in the first place. Two people don’t have a meeting of the minds and cannot agree on mutually acceptable standards for their marriage. Kids are not the same, women are not all the same, and men are not all the same. There is no universal answer. Sometimes it is right to stick together even during conflict, and sometimes it is not. It’s pointless to even try to answer it.

By Sharon on Nov 19, 2009

Chris,

I totally identify with your situation. When my husband started to de-compensate, not able to earn, depression, anger etc. It damages the family and I am not sure if its better out or in. We are in couples therapy but I know he needs to work on himself. I am hanging in hoping we can work it through but wonder most days if I am doing the the right thing. Thanks for speaking up.

Sharon

By Julie on Nov 19, 2009

I think Sofia and Brandi raise important points. I also think, though, that this discussion is missing a couple of crucial components: The first is an acknowledgement that problems in a marriage are only very rarely the entire fault of one party. “Fighting” takes two people. I have seen a lot of couples fight bitterly about issues that they could have shrugged off–things that seem utterly trivial to me. Obviously, they didn’t seem trivial to those couples, but maybe if the couple had different priorities (say, marital peace rather than who left the cap off the toothpaste again or whatever it is), they wouldn’t be fighting. My husband has some issues that I could fight with him about if I chose (and he would say the same about me), but we don’t fight: I know how he is, and he knows how I am, and we know what issues are important to us. We’ve established these things a long time ago, and fighting about them isn’t going to do any good. I do not believe our children need to see that we’re 100% in agreement on every issue; I just explain to them that there are issues where mama and papa are not the same, and that it’s OK to have disagreements. They’re OK with it, and there is a very low level of conflict in our house.

The second component that should be addressed in these situations is that, really, however much you love your children, the relationship between the two adults is the primary one. That’s the relationship that, for good or ill, started the family; without that relationship, there would have been no children. In some cases, there is a real change in one person that creates chaos in the family. In many cases, though, the personality flaws that are now intolerable were always there, and still you chose each other, still you chose to come together and start a family and envision a future together. Some parents begin to, for lack of a better way to say this, love their kids *more* than they love their spouse and forget to nourish and tend the primary relationship. Marriages or any similar relationships take work and attention. But those were the relationships that existed before the children came and that is what you will be left with when your children move out of the house. I think there is something wrongheaded in sending the message to children that the family unit is basically only individuals, and those individuals can gain or lose favor depending on another individual’s happiness at the time. And that is the message when you say that one member of the family is not necessary or can be removed. I’m not saying that children directly apply this to themselves and believe that “well, if mommy can stop loving daddy, then maybe she can stop loving me, too” although I know some kids who have done so, especially when the divorce is full of conflict and the mother (or father) frequently says negative things about the other parent. For my family, I promote the image that the family is a unit greater than the sum of its individual parts and that we’re a family forever, that we will all love each other despite our failings and disagreements. Our children feel pretty secure with that knowledge.

By Mark on Nov 20, 2009

Well said, Julie. It does take two to tango. And some people believe that we unconsciously choose the partners we do as a way to move us each in the direction of spiritual, emotional and psychological maturity; that attending to and successfully resolving conflict is a central and significant part of that journey. It is often the things that upset us most that indicate the places where the work needs to be done.

By Brandi on Nov 20, 2009

Julie,
All I can say is that the point you made
“I think there is something wrongheaded in sending the message to children that the family unit is basically only individuals, and those individuals can gain or lose favor depending on another individual’s happiness at the time. And that is the message when you say that one member of the family is not necessary or can be removed.”
is so moving and so meaningful to me right now, that I almost feel like you wrote it TO me, right at this moment. The entire concept is so hard to accept but yet can be the savior of all and any marital conflict, if you can reduce it to just one thing.
I know that every point can be argued and not everyone will agree, but that is the biggest issue I faced in dealing with my parent’s divorce. Feeling as though one of my parents just decided that what was best for “them” was what was best. Not thinking of anyone but themselves, not giving the chance for anyone to make things better. Who can you count on when you think that the individual trumps the group?
That was a great comment, thank you.